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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#272351: Feb 20th 2019 at 7:34:25 PM

I find it kind of hilarious Trump uses ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE unironically since the most famous use of that term (and a play that inspired Jaws) is about the wrongful prosecution of a man pointing out an environmental disaster the town is covering up due to the fact it might damage tourism.

You know, missing that the tourism will be damaged when all the tourists die.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Theatre/AnEnemyOfThePeople

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#272352: Feb 20th 2019 at 8:28:18 PM

Could we get a citation about the Florida measles thing? I don't doubt it happened, but it'd be nice to have an article to share around.

And that said, some kids do have adverse reactions to the vaccinations - my brother only got part of his completed because he had a strong allergic reaction every time he got the vaccine, and was granted a waiver because of that medical history. That's the value of herd immunity - it protects those that can't get the vaccine as well as those that can... provided those that can actually do so.

And in other terrorism news, a Coast Guard officer just got arraigned on domestic terrorism charges because he was drawing up a hit-list of media and political figures (all of whom are left-wing), and apparently drew inspiration from the Norwegian terrorist's [name purposely omitted] manifesto.

Thankfully, part of how they nabbed him before any actions were taken was because he was dumb enough to search for (and visit?) extremist websites while at work... with the US Coast Guard. That kind of shit gets flagged real quick.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#272353: Feb 20th 2019 at 8:50:21 PM

[up] Unless a person has a legitimate medical issue that would prevent them from getting one, (such as being allergic to something in the vaccine), it should really be mandatory for all parents to vaccinate their children.

Edited by megaeliz on Feb 20th 2019 at 11:53:42 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#272354: Feb 20th 2019 at 9:35:38 PM

[up][up] I did a quick search for ""florida" measles cancer patients" and '"florida" measles leukemia ward", limited to the past week, but came up empty. Most of it was general or didn't concern Florida.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#272355: Feb 20th 2019 at 10:45:35 PM

I'll get the info from my friend who told me about it (and was bitterly depressed by it). You're right that it should be national news as an example of the horrible shit that can happen.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#272356: Feb 20th 2019 at 11:31:06 PM

I'd appreciate that as well, Charles. As someone who works in healthcare I truly hope it's only a rumor or was exaggerated in the telling. If not... well, it's not like my opinion of antivaxxers can fall any further.

In other news:

The election panel review of the North Carolina election fraud is going extra days beyond the plan to cover everything that happened. People employed by McCrae Dowless, the political operative who worked for Republican candidate Mark Harris, recounted collecting absentee ballots (illegal in NC) and in some cases even filling those ballots in. Furthermore, Harris' son, a US attorney, warned his father about hiring Dowless and past crooked actions committed by Dowless in other races. Link

On day three of a hearing meant to get to the bottom of an absentee ballot scheme in the as-yet-undecided U.S. House race in North Carolina's 9th Congressional District, Republican Mark Harris' son testified that he warned his father about the political operative at the investigation's center.

All eyes now are on Harris, who is expected to testify first thing Thursday morning about what he knew was going on in the eastern part of the 9th District, and when he knew it.

The State Board of Elections' investigation is centered on a political operative, Mc Crae Dowless, who was hired by Harris to get out the vote. A consultant testified that Dowless was paid roughly 5 percent of the Harris campaign's total expenditures over the course of the primary and general elections.

Investigators say Dowless' efforts went beyond what is legal in North Carolina, but Harris has said publicly a number of times that he knew nothing about any illegal activity being done on behalf of his campaign. Testimony by his own son on Wednesday calls those assertions into question.

Harris' son, John Harris, is an assistant U.S. attorney in North Carolina. He said Wednesday that he reviewed the 2016 primary results after Harris was defeated by incumbent Robert Pittenger.

He noticed oddities in vote-by-mail results in Bladen County, where the third-place finisher, Todd Johnson, won a near sweep of those ballots in the county. Dowless worked on behalf of Johnson in 2016.

John Harris then looked at publicly available data on when ballots were received and noticed that the absentee ballots were returned in "batches."

That led him to believe that someone was collecting ballots and turning them in.

"Did you talk about those concerns with Mark Harris?" asked Kim Strach, the executive director of the North Carolina State Board of Elections.

"I did," said John Harris.

Investigators showed the board a number of emails John Harris exchanged with his father about absentee ballots in Bladen County, including an email in which he forwarded the specific North Carolina statute that forbids the collection of ballots.

...

Multiple people have testified to the state board that they were paid by Dowless to collect ballots, which is illegal in the state. One woman, Lisa Britt, testified that she also filled out some down-ballot races that voters had left blank when she collected their ballots, which is against the law.

...

Harris became emotional as his testimony concluded Wednesday.

"I love my dad and I love my mom. I certainly have no vendetta against them," John Harris said. "I think they made mistakes in this process and they certainly did things differently than I would have done them."

He added that there was an ongoing "exploitation of this process for political gain" by both political parties that he hoped would soon come to an end.

Mark Harris could be seen crying at the end of his son's testimony.

Yates said that before Mark Harris introduced him to Dowless, Harris told him that Dowless had a criminal history involving "minor charges" related to a divorce more than two decades ago. Yates said he looked up Dowless using Google before they met and came across those charges but said he didn't come across felony fraud charges that Dowless had also faced.

If the election is thrown out, a new one probably won't be held until the summer or fall. Meanwhile, of course, state Republicans are still pushing for the election of Harris to be certified. Because, you know, North Carolina Republicans.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#272357: Feb 20th 2019 at 11:51:16 PM

I do wonder about how many unvaccinated black kids with actual medical reasons for nonvaccination would be forcibly vaccinated (and then given an "oops, not our fault" if they died from complications) and their parents arrested. But that's a concern with a lot of solutions through criminal law and not vaccination-specific.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#272358: Feb 20th 2019 at 11:53:12 PM

Probably not a lot considering that'd be on the hospital and not the parents if that happened.

Oh really when?
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#272359: Feb 21st 2019 at 12:00:36 AM

I mean police and prosecutors using the law against being unvaccinated to arrest parents of kids with literal medical exceptions. The police forcing said kid to be vaccinated would just be a cherry on the shit sundae.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#272360: Feb 21st 2019 at 3:26:38 AM

[up] They wouldn't be getting arrested, more likely this would go through CPS and they'd be in danger of losing custody of their children for refusing to vaccinate.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272361: Feb 21st 2019 at 4:46:32 AM

To be fair to the worry warts, arresting people in cases where it is not the best solution is a common antipattern in US policy. See the truancy policy that Kamala Harris enforced in California as Attorney General and is now receiving flak for, for example.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272362: Feb 21st 2019 at 4:55:42 AM

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say; could you explain?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#272363: Feb 21st 2019 at 5:06:52 AM

Arresting and jailing the parents of unvaccinated children would only turn them into martyrs for their movement unfortunately,taking their children from them would have a similar effect I think,getting them to vaccinate their kids should involve educating the parents

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272364: Feb 21st 2019 at 5:36:18 AM

@wisewillow: If that was aimed to me I am talking about this policy. Now it seems like she didn't actually jail anyone, but if memory serves California (and possibly other US states; I am mainly familiar with California) has a history of questionable uses of penal law some actually worse.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272365: Feb 21st 2019 at 5:38:30 AM

That’s not the issue.

To be fair to the worry warts, arresting people in cases where it is not the best solution is a common antipattern in US policy.

I couldn’t figure out what you meant by that sentence.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#272366: Feb 21st 2019 at 5:42:01 AM

Arresting and jailing the parents of unvaccinated children would only turn them into martyrs for their movement unfortunately,taking their children from them would have a similar effect I think,getting them to vaccinate their kids should involve educating the parents

Honestly, I wouldn't mind them being martyrs. Occasionally when I have fond thoughts of what I'd do if I were the mostly benevolentish dictator of the US, I think about what to do with anti-vaxxers. For anyone who doesn't vaccinate for any reason other than medical reasons, put the parents in jail for a year, (with longer jail times if they do it again) vaccinate the kids anyway when they're in jail, and in addition to jail time, cut off anyone who promotes anti-vax propaganda from the social safety net for life. (So no social security, no medicare, no food stamps, no medicaid, no health insurance subsidization, no tax breaks on anything, ever, no help on their kids' college tuition, etc.)

Let them be the biggest fucking martyrs in the world to their idiotic cult. After a few of them become examples to the rest and the prospect of lifelong consequences hit, (along with the knowledge that the kids are going to be vaccinated anyway despite their resistance) things would change real quick. You want to give society the middle finger out of selfishness and delusion? Society can give you the middle finger right back. And it has a much, much bigger middle finger.

If they think being viewed as a Doomed Moral Victor by their dumbass siblings in arms is worth it, by all means, go ahead. Wouldn't want to deprive them of the right to make that choice.

I can deal with a lot of things in a reasonable way, but not the antivax movement. Drives me goddamn insane.

Edited by TheWanderer on Feb 21st 2019 at 8:45:17 AM

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272367: Feb 21st 2019 at 5:44:22 AM

....

Jesus Christ. No.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272368: Feb 21st 2019 at 5:45:43 AM

Ah, that one. I had some problems in formulating that statement; governments have often relied on tough-on-crime policies such as jail to fight social issues even when these policies are ineffective, counterproductive, overly harsh or second-choice so it's reasonable to worry that we'll see more of the same. The War on Drugs being a good example.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#272369: Feb 21st 2019 at 5:56:36 AM

[up][up][up] With the best will in the world, I'm glad you're not a benevolent dictator of anywhere then. smile

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#272370: Feb 21st 2019 at 6:09:04 AM

....

Jesus Christ. No.

Eh, relax, it's an indulgent fantasy. I know it's blatantly unconstitutional and would be wrong for a number of reasons, (including the ways it would be punishing the kids via side effects) and that sort of lifelong punishment for a matter like vaccination is wrong and wildly disproportionate, (even if it is a legitimate threat to public health/safety) but it's satisfying to be able to imagine, even if I would (somewhat reluctantly) argue that going that far in real life would be a mistake.

[up] Honestly, so am I.

Edited by TheWanderer on Feb 21st 2019 at 9:10:25 AM

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#272371: Feb 21st 2019 at 6:20:32 AM

See, this is the sort of thing that makes me support democracy. Ultimately, none of us can really be trusted with power. (Especially me)

Disgusted, but not surprised
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#272372: Feb 21st 2019 at 6:24:11 AM

I can tho. Give it all to me. You'll be fiiiine.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#272373: Feb 21st 2019 at 6:25:03 AM

[up][up] The way I once put it to a friend: The only autocracy I'd tolerate is one with me in charge, but I don't trust myself to not abuse said power.

Regarding anti-vaxxers- how viable would it be to legally declare refusal to vaccinate your children a form of child abuse?

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Feb 21st 2019 at 3:26:16 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272374: Feb 21st 2019 at 6:37:21 AM

Can't be done I'm afraid; California's much less draconian elimination of "personal belief" exception to mandatory vaccinations required massive tooth pulling by lawmakers, there are only two other states - West Virginia and Mississippi - which don't have that exception and still a lot of backlash by antivaxxers. Imagine what kind of effort would be needed to go the further step and deem vaccine refusal child abuse.

You'd alsoneed to have exceptions for legitimate cases and a way to tell legitimate cases (California has seen requests for bogus mexical exceptions) from bogus requests.

Would it work, anyway? Granted "String 'em up" policies are very tempting but their success record isn't so great.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Feb 21st 2019 at 3:38:45 PM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#272375: Feb 21st 2019 at 6:48:08 AM

West Virginia and Mississippi are states that, notably, actually have dealt with large scale disease outbreaks and thus do not have time for this shit.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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