Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Okay, having caught up again, I had two things to point out.
> The 'study' used to say that there are very few Progressives is highly flawed, the author's notes showed a clear bias and they grouped 'non politically engaged' as one group, because obviously hardcore anarchists and your friend (Insert Name) who doesn't care about politics but is low key bigoted about any minority group that isn't them are exactly the same.
Oh, and yeah, Progressive ideas are still popular amongst Americans.
> Also, last note, electability is usually used to block POC and Women's voices
more than it is a practical problem.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 19th 2019 at 9:45:19 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Progressive ideas are popular of course in the same way "free ice cream" is popular. Once you start talking about the fact that you're going to have to raise their taxes to accomplish that goal, that support plummets, and it drops even further among white Americans once someone points out blacks will benefit from it.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Feb 19th 2019 at 9:54:33 AM
I agree completely. It's why I think AOC has a real shot at the White House some day.
The modern voter has a very short attention span. Being able to summarize complex ideas into something that's snappy, sticks in the mind, and is maybe even hilarious can go a long way to making somebody electable. This is an area where Democrats are at a disadvantage, because it's easy for Republicans to say "Choke on a dick and spin" in a funny way than it is for Democrats to turn "Poor people deserve healthcare" into a clever punchline.
Evil Is Cool and all that. It's super-easy to be a total f*cking scumbag and look like a baller while doing it. Just ask Cocaine Mitch
.
It's much harder to look like a quippy badass firing off memeworthy zingers about the importance of caring for the environment and combatting climate change. Pelosi and Schumer have had their moments where they tried to be Too Cool for School, and it was exactly as embarrassing as watching an 80-year-old try to sound hip was inevitably going to be.
But not impossible. AOC's pretty much mastered it, and she's become an absolute phenomenon as a result. Democrats worship her, Republicans are scared shitless of her. "Quick, we need a scandal to destroy her before it's too late!" "I posted a video of her dancing on a rooftop." "You fool! You've made her MORE POWERFUL!!!"
We need more Democrats like that. People who not only have good policies, but can actually present those policies in a way that the Twitter American will listen to.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Azure Paladin has made some insightful points so I think it's apropos for me to do the same, those moderates the article loves so much? Don't actually exist
.
Or rather, they aren't all that moderate. They're listed as moderate because they have a diverse set of beliefs instead of explicitly aligning with the Left or Right. Which may sound moderate at first glance but it doesn't account for the fact that holding a diverse section of beliefs says nothing about how intense those beliefs are.
Or to quote the article:
Digging into a 134-issue survey, Broockman and coauthor Doug Ahler found that 70.1 percent of all respondents, and 71.3 percent of self-identified moderates, took at least one position outside the political mainstream. Moderates, in other words, are just as likely as anyone else to hold extreme positions: it's just that those positions don't all line up on the left or the right.
For Ahler and Broockman, this solves a puzzle. They note that many states have implemented election reforms to wrest the process away from partisans and empower average voters to elect the moderate politicians they really want. These reforms include open primary elections, nonpartisan redistricting, and public funding of elections. But "the bulk of studies on these reforms finds little evidence that they improve moderate candidates' fortunes."
The answer, Ahler and Brookman realize, is simple: these voters don't want moderate candidates because these voters aren't actually moderates.
So yeah, supporting 'electable' centrist politicians in a bid to woo moderates isn't a very good idea. Obama didn't do so well because he was centrist, he did well because he was an extremely good candidate. And Obama-Trump voters are not evidence of the woo-ability of 'moderates'.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:03:55 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
x6 So, couple things: You can minimize raising taxes if you close loopholes and raise them on the rich, as well as cutting spending where it is no longer needed (like trimming the Pentagon's bloated budget). Two, we need to fight back on the propaganda front so that 'Taaxes EEEEEEEE Evil!" is no longer the total consensus. And finally, the racism of part of the country is no reason to capitulate and push aside policies and candidates. I'm...rather concerned, that you haven't seemed to register this.
Edit: Thread moving at the speed of light!
Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:02:38 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerProgressive ideas are popular of course in the same way "free ice cream" is popular. Once you start talking about the fact that you're going to have to raise their taxes to accomplish that goal, that support plummets, and it drops even further among white Americans once someone points out blacks will benefit from it.
I've heard this before, but I don't buy it.
It's awfully convenient that popular progressive policies aren't actually popular and thus can be safely dismissed just because "of course voters oppose raxes". This sounds more like an excuse to safely dismiss policy without even trying to push for it.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:06:00 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangHonestly, I rarely use sexual metaphors but the New York deal for Amazon was various kinds of sexual metaphors.
And not for New York to Amazon.
Also, Warren is going to (hopefully) do far far far worse to corporations as the reason I'd vote for her.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 19th 2019 at 7:07:25 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.![]()
![]()
And therin is the point. You (not you Fourth Spartan) are asking us to step back from policies that actually help people, in fear of offending the mythical "moderates" or silent majority or whatever people like to call them now. But you know what? If we don't stand up and try to do what's right, bad things happen. If we don't start using radical policies on the climate, we will have a disaster on our hands. If we push minority voices out of politics, our right's will suffer and we will have to pick up the pieces.
I get that you're trying to do good. But if you keep trying to do things at a 'sensible' speed, well, we're running down the clock now.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:09:01 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerCortez is charming and I think she'll probably be a good element to add into Congress, but I'd be concerned about her running for President too, at least how she is right now (policy-wise, and discounting other things like the lack of experience which will come with age). If she stands the test of time, then she could be a strong candidate when she's eligible to run, possibly.
Also, wasn't the Amazon HQ deal mostly going to gentrify Queens and bring in a bunch of people from out of the city? I'd almost expect it to be a sort of Company Town setup.
It's been fun.Yup. A lot of jobs were going to be bringing in outside workers; housing is already expensive and crowded, and Amazon’s tax breaks would mean Amazon didn’t put money back into public works and infrastructure. A lot of people were going to get hurt by the proposed deal.
Also, as AOC herself acknowledged, this was community organizing, not her. She made some comments, but she didn’t kill the deal. She’s not omnipotent.
Yup. If I remember correctly, the land slotted was going to be used for affordable housing developments, too.
Here we are. It absolutely was
.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:13:21 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerBig-tech could easily swing the 2020 election to the GOP if they were sufficiently irritated with the Democrats. You need powerful (and under capitalism that means the private sector) interests backing you, the more the better, and while you can screw over one sector here or there, in aggregate the house always wins.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:16:08 AM
We don't live in a Corporatocracy yet, and I'll be damned before I lay down and just let it happen. I do have doubts if they're that much of a force as you say, but if they are that just makes them a more important target to regulate and trust bust.
In short, capitulation is not an option, unless you really do want a set of unaccountable overlords. [Redacted for arguably being too personal]
Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 19th 2019 at 10:19:44 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerI can't believe people are actually talking about AOC as a potential presidential candidate.
She just got elected to the House. It's still way too early for that kind of talk. Just because she's good at shit-talking Republicans on Twitter doesn't make her presidential material.
Disgusted, but not surprised

I remember reading something a while back about how a lot of the Obama-Trump voters were right-leaning voters who Obama managed to win over with his incredible charisma, competent politicking, and strong policies.
And that voting for Trump was just them returning to their typical voting tendencies once Obama was out.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 19th 2019 at 7:36:32 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.