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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#271826: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:14:34 PM

"I haven't studied this with any rigor or put much thought into it, but my opinion is still equally if not more important than actual experts'" is one of the most poisonous mentalities out there and a big part behind Trump's rise.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271827: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:16:47 PM

[up]That is completely incorrect. For all of the attempts to blame Trump on anti-intellectualism, the poor working class were not the people who voted for Trump. It was the middle class and even upper class whites. Many of them who were educated but simply chose white nationalism and fearmongering over Hillary.

Trump ignores experts but no one actually buys his propaganda about climate change or Russia...they just don't care.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 17th 2019 at 6:17:23 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#271828: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:19:16 PM

Draghinazzo didn't say anything about the poor or working-class, white or otherwise.

Edited by LSBK on Feb 17th 2019 at 8:19:41 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#271829: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:19:32 PM

[up][up][up] It's also something explicitly required in a democracy; people have to form opinions on topics that they're completely ignorant about and cast votes accordingly, and without wading through dozens of scholarly journal articles behind a paywall it can be nigh impossible to know what experts actually think.

Seeing popular press on biology related topics was a real eye opener for just how much news media distorts highly technical and specialized fields to make them digestible* to a layperson audience.

I really wish there was better communication between experts and the general public, but I can't think of any good ways to make that happen.

Trump ignores experts but no one actually buys his propaganda about climate change or Russia...they just don't care.

It hardly matters whether they believe it or not; their actions are all that matter.

* And then there's the cases where the science correspondents don't know what they're talking about in the first place.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Feb 17th 2019 at 9:26:21 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#271830: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:20:45 PM

Trump ignores experts but no one actually buys his propaganda about climate change or Russia

And how do you know that? Past a certain point it's hard to determine who's being disingenuous and who the true believers are.

Also yeah I never mentioned anything about the working class. What I said was more about the lionization of stupidity, ignorant self-importance and lack of critical thinking skills, which being middle class or having money won't prevent.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Feb 17th 2019 at 10:22:50 AM

StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#271831: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:30:27 PM

I really need to point out that this is a working class environment I'm in. This guy doesn't come across as middle class to me, but maybe it's more complicated than we realise.

To reiterate, I don't think this guy is consciously racist, he gets along with our black and brown coworkers. But it is still insidious, as the stuff he's been led to believe furthers white supremacy. I think he might just be willfully ignorant that the reasons he think makes his ideas good aren't the real reasons that the right wants to build a wall or be tough on crime. It's not about stopping crime, it's just an excuse to target minorities

He hangs out with my liberal coworker, who I think went on a drunken tirade about socialism (he's a Bernie supporter. I wasn't there), It made my conservative coworker just double down on his belief the left is intolerant of different ideas, without thinking that "tolerance" has to do with tolerating things that aren't your business and not awful ideas that will hurt people when enacted.

For some people, it's all about presentation. You come on too strong and people just think you're an extremist, but they'll believe what they want if it's said calmly and with "evidence." You can explain how it's fair to be tough on crime, but that doesn't explain why punishment is so disproportionate, or why it's unfairly enforced against some and not all.

Still, I do try to keep an open mind when I talk to him or others, as I don't want to fall into the same traps I believe they've fallen for. I try not to dismiss what they say outright, just consider if they might be right and think critically with what else I know.

Edited by StarOutlaw on Feb 17th 2019 at 8:34:13 AM

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#271832: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:51:38 PM

My coworker (and his nephew that used to work there) get super irritated when our immigrant coworkers speak to each other in their native language. It's like they're pissed that they're not included in the conversation, or they think they're keeping secrets.
Confession time: Back when I was young and stupid, I thought like this too. Eventually I grew out of such a poisonous mindset and realized that, hey, maybe they are just more comfortable talking to each other in their native tongues if English isn't their first language?

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#271833: Feb 17th 2019 at 7:13:28 PM

@Dingo Walley 1: Just wanted to post that I'm glad that the Majority Coalition is holding. Said coalition happened in the last legislature, but it was less obvious because Bill Walker was an independent.

I had thought that Alaska had the last bastion of sane conservatism, but then Dunleavy was elected. Teabagger needs to go away.

StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#271834: Feb 17th 2019 at 7:19:06 PM

[up][up]I think this is an issue that really extroverted people have in general; they feel a little insulted if they aren't included in socializing. I have another coworker who just wants to talk and seems visibly irritated when I focus on the job first. I'm extremely introverted in person so it's hard for me to understand, to be honest.

And on that note, this coworker is also kind of casually kept trying to goad me into reacting to a different employee that's apparently transgender. Like, trying to get me to laugh at how ridiculous it is that this guy is dressing like a woman. Again, I had to act cool about it. I acted like I didn't care and it wasn't my business, treated her like she was making a big deal out of it. I needed to NOT get pissed at her and call her transphobic because again, that would probably just make things worse.

I don't know how well this method works, but I feel like it was better to treat her attitude like she was being childish instead of getting on my high horse and lecturing her about tolerance. I think making things "political" isn't the right way. "I don't care how this person dresses or what he/she does, and I don't find anything that funny about it." Like, don't berate them, just act like they're the one making things weird. Make it clear that this attitude is making them the outsider instead.

Edited by StarOutlaw on Feb 17th 2019 at 9:22:01 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#271835: Feb 17th 2019 at 7:24:59 PM

There's always going to be some dislike of people talking in a way you can't understand (slang, code, other languages). It's not like there aren't also no end of anecdotes about people talking in another language to insult someone, not realising that the person in question can speak it too.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#271836: Feb 17th 2019 at 7:28:36 PM

[up]I would only be upset if someone spoke a language I didn't understand at my workplace if doing so was interfering with my actual job somehow.

[up][up]

I don't know how well this method works, but I feel like it was better to treat her attitude like she was being childish instead of getting on my high horse and lecturing her about tolerance. I think making things "political" isn't the right way. "I don't care how this person dresses or what he/she does, and I don't find anything that funny about it." Like, don't berate them, just act like they're the one making things weird. Make it clear that this attitude is making them the outsider instead.

It's kind of sad that people will get accused of being "political" just for standing up for treating other people with basic human decency. What she's doing is shitty and she's trying to make you a part of it. That's not just childish, that's just plain wrong.

Edited by M84 on Feb 17th 2019 at 11:38:08 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#271837: Feb 17th 2019 at 7:37:40 PM

[up]Yeah, it is. It's not even limited to political things either. I've been in other situations when I was younger when classmates tried to goad me into making fun of other classmates just for being quirky, and I acted the same way; don't get pissed, just nullify their attempts with indifference, make it not worth their effort. And these weren't brats trying to get me pissed, these were people looking for someone to back them up and essentially justify their bullying. And I guess that people don't grow out of that.

[down]If these were people I was actually close with, I'd probably be less controlled about it. Again, they seem like good people for the most part; I doubt they realize how shitty they are, they think they're being normal. And I never see our crossdressing employee, so I have no idea what the situation is.

Edited by StarOutlaw on Feb 17th 2019 at 9:43:40 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#271838: Feb 17th 2019 at 7:40:05 PM

I will however note that it probably wouldn't have been a good idea to outright call her a transphobe. Because there's a chance that person who crossdresses isn't doing so because of being transgender — there are other reasons people crossdress.

[up]I'm also guessing you don't regularly meet these people outside of work. That probably helps make them more tolerable.

Edited by M84 on Feb 17th 2019 at 11:48:52 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#271839: Feb 17th 2019 at 7:51:57 PM

Confession time: Back when I was young and stupid, I thought like this too.

Admittedly, this is something I sometimes struggle with, but not because they're speaking in another language, but because for all of my non-fluency in their language, if I were having a conversation close enough for them to hear, they could probably understand every word. It makes me feel inadequate every single time, knowing only one language among people who can easily speak two (or more, depending on how small God wants to make me feel that day).

i'm tired, my friend
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#271840: Feb 17th 2019 at 8:25:28 PM

[up]I would only be upset if someone spoke a language I didn't understand at my workplace if doing so was interfering with my actual job somehow.

Needing to supervise/help people when they're speaking another language is also a problem I've had.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#271841: Feb 17th 2019 at 8:28:37 PM

We cant change everyone's minds. Then again, we don't have to. Educating people is like venture capital- you have to expect to fail most times, but the few times you succeed in broadening someone's perspective, its worth it.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#271842: Feb 17th 2019 at 8:29:22 PM

Of course, some people are simply too far gone to waste your time on.

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#271843: Feb 17th 2019 at 8:35:45 PM

And it is probably more emotionally draining to deal with bigots than it is to invest in the latest overpriced smart juicer or something.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#271844: Feb 17th 2019 at 8:36:25 PM

I don't know how serious he is, but he seems to think that the USA should just invade Mexico to bring order to this supposed crisis.

Ah, I remember when I was young and dumb and had ideas like this. Then 9/11 happened and it soon became apparent that invasions cause more problems than they solve

My coworker (and his nephew that used to work there) get super irritated when our immigrant coworkers speak to each other in their native language. It's like they're pissed that they're not included in the conversation, or they think they're keeping secrets.

Huh, I actually prefer conversations I'm not part of to be in languages I don't understand since it makes them much easier to ignore

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#271845: Feb 17th 2019 at 8:51:01 PM

I think that's one of those things that depends on how frequently one is exposed to the situation. If it's been an everyday occurrence for years, getting annoyed with conversations you can't understand quickly becomes a waste of your emotional energy, and it swiftly becomes easy to file it into the general 'people doing innocuous things that have nothing to do with me' background noise filter.

Edited by Gilphon on Feb 17th 2019 at 11:51:41 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#271846: Feb 17th 2019 at 9:34:55 PM

I also don't get why you'd feel the need to be included in everything the people around you say. If it's a conversation you're not even a part of to begin with, who cares?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#271847: Feb 17th 2019 at 9:45:21 PM

Though it's personally not a thing that's ever bothered me, and I point it out after the fact, I have had coworkers of all stripes apologizing for speaking in their native languages around me and other Americans, and that includes white Europeans. I don't know if because they assume Americans in general are sensitive about this kind of thing or if it's a universal attitude towards fear of appearing too gossipy. That I grew up in an immigrant household and therefore my parents would frequently speak in a language that I didn't and still haven't managed to fully understand, might be a reason for my attitude.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 17th 2019 at 1:09:45 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#271848: Feb 17th 2019 at 10:57:12 PM

[up][up]I will guess it feel they are speaking bad things about you or make you look ignorant, I have seen with venezuelan in order countries who mock other people in spanish.

Yeah when it come to race, latin america is still that inmadure 10 years old.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#271849: Feb 17th 2019 at 11:26:38 PM

There’s a lot of context appropriateness with language stuff in the workplace, when another language is being used to exclude a person from a conversation it is rude, in a workplace where you need a lot of communication it makes things more helpful if everyone can understand what’s being said (I can help my coworkers a lot more if I can understand what the problem is). Then you get situations where it’s a natural lapse, I’ve had managers talk about me in Italian just on instinct, it ended up being a running joke, that I recognise my own name regardless of what language it’s said in.

Also I suspect that attitudes towards this vary depending on industry demographics, a minority within a workplace speaking a separate language has a different workplace impact than a majority speaking separate languages. It’s no fun sitting there at work while everyone around you chats in another language and you’re stuck thinking that you should have studied more in school.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#271850: Feb 17th 2019 at 11:52:43 PM

On the other hand, if it's a private conversation between two coworker friends one shouldn't feel insulted, especially if one isn't mutual friends with said coworkers.

And given everything Star Outlaw said about their coworker, it really does seem like the asshole feels oppressed just by hearing a different language.

Edited by M84 on Feb 18th 2019 at 3:53:10 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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