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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#271726: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:19:16 PM

That's the kind of thing that falls flat on its face in the face of reality- you can't exactly trust criminals to come forward and submit to rehabilitation of their own accord. So sometimes you'd communally make them do so. Which is what a mob is. And, of course, it comes with the territory that a person like that would've done something that would make people angry, upset, and less likely to be thinking rationally. So the mob would necessarily be an angry one.

Which is the thing, generally- I've never seen anyone suggest an alternative to a police force that wouldn't be significantly worse for underprivileged groups, once you consider how it would work in practice.

Edited by Gilphon on Feb 16th 2019 at 12:31:13 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271727: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:23:25 PM

I tend to think a large amount of the pressure on underprivileged groups are from above the police down. So remove that and the police won't automatically be fixed but will be capable of being fixed.

Basically, legalize lesser drugs and it will be a step.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#271728: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:28:14 PM

@Charles Phipps: With 'exile' the thing to keep in mind is that it's almost always a death sentence in practice.

@Alley Oop: Your average citizen lacks the training and discipline of a police officer. Unnecessary use of lethal force is frequently caused by police being cowardly and/or untrained. The most likely way common citizens are to respond to crime is, quite simply, lethal force and vigilante justice.

Leviticus 19:34
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271729: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:32:48 PM

Unfortunately, a lot of current police training fails to emphasize deescalation and instead encourages cops to see every situation as ten seconds from life or death. Firearms training is heavily emphasized, and they’re trained to use them with zero provocation. Talked to an ex-army guy once who said police training on using firearms is less strict than in an actual warzone, where you need permission to fire on any one, even if you’re being shot at.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#271730: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:38:33 PM

However it sounds like something would run into major logistical issues above a certain population size.

Yep, for anarcho-Communist self policing to happen people have to feel ownership of the rules, that means they have to very easily be able to change them via the anarcho system. For that to work you max out at a bit over 100, or maybe you could stretch it to the size of some legislators. For people to rehabilitate easily without force it requires everyone to be peers, breaking the rules isn’t just breaking the rules, it’s a betrayal of your friends who made the rules with you.

And yeah exile ends up being the final punishment, we had to use it during my time once (though it was used by our community’s owner two or maybe three other times).

We could exile because we were a school, the concept becomes much more difficult if you expand in either population size or geographic size.

I should note that some form of delegated policing isn’t inherently against the ideas of an anarcho-Communist society, we had elected people for specific rule enforcement jobs, but they still reported directly to the community as a whole, if you did your job in a way someone didn’t like they would take a case to the community for you to be punished (that happened to me once actually).

Edited by Silasw on Feb 16th 2019 at 5:41:00 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#271731: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:44:32 PM

[up]It was also a school and not a full blown commune. I imagine it would be even more challenging if that were the case.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#271732: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:50:57 PM

Yeah at the end of the day we always had a higher authority we could call upon, when there was an arson attack on us from outside the community (before my time) we called the police and let them investigate, we didn’t try and solve that ourselves.

Edited by Silasw on Feb 16th 2019 at 5:53:30 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271733: Feb 16th 2019 at 10:00:39 PM

Yeah, in my home state sadly "justice by the people" has a....well, let's just racial connotation.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#271734: Feb 16th 2019 at 10:21:54 PM

It might be edging into general politics a bit, but since we’re talking about how to justify power of a government, here’s what John Locke had to say about it.

The state of nature was inherently unstable. Individuals would be under contrast threat of physical harm. And they would be unable to pursue any goals that required stability and widespread cooperation with other humans. Locke’s claim is that government arose in this context. Individuals, seeing the benefits which could be gained, decided to relinquish some of their rights to a central authority while retaining other rights. This took the form of a contract. In agreement for relinquishing certain rights, individuals would receive protection from physical harm, security for their possessions, and the ability to interact and cooperate with other humans in a stable environment.

So, according to this view, governments were instituted by the citizens of those governments. This has a number of very important consequences. On this view, rulers have an obligation to be responsive to the needs and desires of these citizen.

So basically, in order to have a stable and functioning society, people form social contracts, where they agree to give up certain rights in exchange for security and protection of other rights. Thus governments can only be legitimate if they have the consent of the governed, by fulfilling their end of the social contract to protect the wefare and rights of it’s citizens. In return, the governed are expected fulfill their end of the social contract, obeying the laws of the government, and paying taxes, so the government can continue to play that role.

I think it’s worth bringing up, since it was the theoretical framework that America was founded on.

Edited by megaeliz on Feb 16th 2019 at 1:47:28 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#271735: Feb 17th 2019 at 12:26:07 AM

So...is anyone paying attention to what Pence is currently up to at the security conference? You should, btw.

NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#271736: Feb 17th 2019 at 12:32:29 AM

Presumably being exceptionally boring at everyone.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#271737: Feb 17th 2019 at 12:45:56 AM

Personally offending vast numbers of people is a specific reason, Trump is unpopular enough that I feel confident that if anyone could be a one term President it's him.
My only reason to disagree with you is that many, if not most, of the people Trump offends (and often insults directly) aren't registered to vote. Usually because they've been deliberately disenfranchised by the GOP.
I love how the more one learns of history, the more convinced one is that humanity is nothing more than a blight upon the Earth.
I feel like Sarcasm Mode wasn't the right pothole for that. tongue
And the government has yet to issue an official apology, mind.
Surely you're not expecting it from this administration?
is anyone paying attention to what Pence is currently up to at the security conference?
I didn't know he was at a security conference, but my first guess is that he's blaming all the evils of the world on the homos and the libtards, as he follows the GOP dogma.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#271738: Feb 17th 2019 at 12:56:06 AM

[up][up] No...War mongering while threatening the US closest allies.

Edited by Swanpride on Feb 17th 2019 at 12:56:22 PM

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#271739: Feb 17th 2019 at 1:26:46 AM

So... about par for the course for the Trump regime, then?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#271740: Feb 17th 2019 at 1:53:12 AM

For some context.

For more context: Merkel held a speech yesterday in which she expressed the irritation (to put it lightly) of Germany over the whole matter with BMW being treated as a security issue, the whole complains about where the EU buys its gas, the Iran deal and above all the US and Russia jeopardizing their agreement.

In short: Europe is getting more and more p... off. I think the only reason they haven't shown the US the middle finger yet is because they hope that Trump will be a one term president and that the Democrats in the house will use their influence.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#271741: Feb 17th 2019 at 2:17:05 AM

So did you see Chris Evans' awesome takedown of that terrible "He is not racist, just stupid" defense, regarding Trump's horrible trail of tears comment?

https://twitter.com/ChrisEvans/status/1095077990587723776

Edited by Forenperser on Feb 17th 2019 at 11:17:13 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#271742: Feb 17th 2019 at 2:30:52 AM

[up][up] I really think that Pelosi should sanction a Congressional Delegation to follow every foreign engagement just to hammer that point home. And then Europe and other "traditional allies" should reciprocate by only meeting with Congress the next time they come over to DC. There is nothing Trump hates more than a big foreign relations event that *he* is not invited to.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#271743: Feb 17th 2019 at 2:34:33 AM

Trump: EU must take back 800 Isis fighters captured in Syria

US doesn’t want to watch ‘fighters permeate Europe’ with caliphate ‘ready to fall’, says president

Donald Trump has told the EU it must take back its 800 Isis fighters captured in Syria by US-backed forces and put them on trial.

The president’s call came as he prepared to claim the end of the caliphate in north-west Syria with the fall of the final Isis-held town.

Some EU countries, notably France, have said they are preparing to take back their former jihadists, but the UK has been more resistant: it says the fighters held by the west’s Syrian Kurd allies can only return if they seek consular help in Turkey.

The UK government says it faces a dilemma, especially concerning the wives or children of British fighters, and a major challenge either to prosecute the fighters or prevent them from undertaking terrorist acts in their homeland.

Trump tweeted: “The United States is asking Britain, France, Germany and other European allies to take back over 800 Isis fighters that we captured in Syria and put them on trial. The Caliphate is ready to fall. The alternative is not a good one in that we will be forced to release them.

“The US does not want to watch as these Isis fighters permeate Europe, which is where they are expected to go. We do so much, and spend so much - Time for others to step up and do the job that they are so capable of doing. We are pulling back after 100% Caliphate victory!”

Diplomats gathered at this weekend’s Munich security conference, a major meeting of officials and policymakers, have repeatedly warned that the capture of Isis-held territory does not mean an end to the Isis ideological and terrorist threat; they point to the way in which Isis forces are already regathering in Iraq, notably Mosul.

The Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) say they have cornered the remaining Isis militants in a neighbourhood of Baghuz village near the Iraqi border. Foreign fighters and families have featured prominently among those who have fled the village, which had been been a collection point for extremists who had fled other towns and villages across Syria and Iraq. It is thought to be the last redoubt of zealots who had fought in numerous clashes across both countries.

On Thursday Shamima Begum, 19, one of three east London schoolgirls who left the UK in 2015 to join Isis, was discovered in the al-Hawl refugee camp in north-east Syria after fleeing the enclave.

Trump’s remarks mask an intense transatlantic debate under way between politicians and military over how to handle his unilateral decision to withdraw its 2,000 troops in north-west Syria.

The US military, and Arab states, have been pressing the Trump administration to delay the move to give more time for an agreement to be reached on how the mainly Kurd SDF are to be protected from a potential Turkish incursion once US forces leave.

The Turkish defence minister, Hulusi Akar, met his US counterpart, Patrick Shanahan, on the sidelines of the Munich conference to press his plan for Turkey to establish a safe zone, saying the Kurds in the SDF are indistinguishable from the Kurdish PKK fighting a separatist terrorist war inside Turkey. The Kurdish leadership is resisting the move, fearing it will lead to either a massacre or displacement of the Kurds.

Akar said: “PKK terrorists do not represent our Kurdish brothers. There is no difference between the PKK and the YPG,” Akar told senior US officials during his meetings. He said clearing the Turkey-Syria border area from the PKK and its Syrian branch YPG has been a top priority for Ankara, in order to ensure the security of Turkish people.

“A 440-km-long (273-mile) safe zone in east of Euphrates should be cleared of the terrorist YPG group and should be patrolled by the Turkish forces,” he stressed.

But senior Republican senators such as Lindsey Graham have acknowledged that the SDF has borne the brunt of fighting Isis, and there would be long term implications for the US reputation in the Middle East if it was seen to desert its allies at this stage.

He said Trump had been pressing European forces to set up a small international force to protect the Kurds, including some of the foreign fighters currently held by Kurds either in jails or, in the case of their relatives, in refugee camps. France has as many as 400 forces in Syria, but the UK foreign secretary, Jeremy Hunt, said in an interview published in the Arab press in the weekend that the UK has no plans to send further forces to the region, but will listen to any US request.

Ilham Ahmed, the executive chair of the political wing of the SDF, has been touring Washington, Paris and London to press the case for an international force.

Some Gulf states have said privately they are willing to help provide financial and practical support to such a force, including one effectively led by the Kurds themselves, so long as it is part of a wider UN political process that leads to a long term settlement.

These Gulf states say the Kurds deserve a place in a more federated future Syria, something Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, would resist.

The Gulf States are slowly moving towards recognition of Assad – such as the United Arab Emirates, which has has set up an embassy again in Damascus. The Gulf States believe that, along with the UK, they will have to pick up the eventual cost of Syria’s reconstruction on the basis that Syria, Russia and Iran will be unable to afford such a large bill.

Is Trump seriously trying to pull a Shame If Something Happened on US allies?

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#271744: Feb 17th 2019 at 2:41:28 AM

I mentioned this in the British Politics thread in the context of whether the UK should help facilitate the return of a (then teenage) girl who left to join ISIS and married one of its fighters. While she still doesn't regret her decision she wants to return to the UK now so that she can safely deliver her third child (having lost the previous two).

Now, regardless of whether one thinks she ought to be allowed to come back, one has to acknowledge that there's a difference between bringing her back to the UK — by all accounts she never directly participated in ISIS's atrocities such as beheading reporters even though she still thinks they were justified — and bringing back ISIS fighters who did kill people in the name of ISIS.

And even if bringing them back for trial is the right thing to do...the way Trump is arguing for it is of course the absolutely worst way to do it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#271745: Feb 17th 2019 at 4:40:30 AM

[up]x7 Are you honestly all that surprised? It's been this song and dance since 2017. Making Europe foot the bill for further US imperialism has been the administration's stated, explicit goal since Trump first took office, it really isn't anything new.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#271746: Feb 17th 2019 at 4:45:39 AM

Trump is ensuring that no one takes them back with such an insidious remark,and if no one takes them back they're still a problem at large,which is the going to bite everyone in the ass when the next time an extremist group rises up

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#271747: Feb 17th 2019 at 4:58:20 AM

I am not surprised, but the matter is heating up. The attacks are getting more and more direct, and the US press seems to be so distracted by the scandal machine which is Trump and the Republican Party in general, that they keep overlooking a huge danger.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#271748: Feb 17th 2019 at 5:25:57 AM

> Now, regardless of whether one thinks she ought to be allowed to come back, one has to acknowledge that there's a difference between bringing her back to the UK — by all accounts she never directly participated in ISIS's atrocities such as beheading reporters even though she still thinks they were justified — and bringing back ISIS fighters who did kill people in the name of ISIS.

Reminds of me the story of the The Farmer and The Stork,with the moral being that you are judged by the company you keep.

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#271749: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:26:02 AM

Getting back to taxes for a moment, back when the 2013 IRS scandal occurred, there was some celebrity on one of the talking head cable shows, claiming he would not pay taxes that year in protest (don't think they actually went through with it, though). I forget who that was- anyone remember?

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#271750: Feb 17th 2019 at 6:29:10 AM

The only actor I know for a fact don't pay taxes is Wesley Snipes.


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