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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#271701: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:52:12 PM

There will always be theft. There will always be someone else taking your stuff. Unless you end up being the stronger one taking someone else's stuff.

With a responsible, stable government, there's at least the hope that a) they only take some of your stuff, leaving you with enough to live on and b) you can influence how they spend their budget.

Think of taxes as theft if it makes you feel better. But know that without taxes, without government, there's no one to prevent things worse than theft.

Edited by nightwyrm_zero on Feb 16th 2019 at 10:56:04 AM

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#271702: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:57:35 PM

[up][up] As a Libertarian myself, there's one massive problem I've always had with the whole "Taxation is Theft" Problem; the money you own isn't the money you make, the money you make comes from the Government. It's designed by the Government, it's printed by the Government, it's backed by the Government (especially for Fiat Currencies like the US Dollar), it's distributed by the Government. You're not making your own money (if you are, you're committing fraud), you're literally borrowing it from the Government, and from individuals who subscribe to the same Government as you (and they're borrowing it from said Government). The only way Taxation is Theft, is if they're stealing foreign currency from your house, which most do not. Everyone's wealth, yours, mine, your neighbors, literally everyones, is literally just a fraction of wealth the Government has that you've simply borrowed from.

If you want your wealth to be your own, you'd have to make your own currency, but literally no one else would consider your currency to be real wealth.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271703: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:01:05 PM

Regarding Taxation being theft. Say for a moment that I founded a charitable organization dedicated to keeping the air clean through various methods. However, because not enough people donate to my charity, we aren't able to meet our objectives and the air gets dirtier. I decide that the solution to this problem is to point a gun at some rich people and demand their money. With the funds so secured, we are able to clean the air and the day is saved.

Even with the most noble of intentions, I think we can all agree that what I did was theft. It doesn't suddenly not become theft if I was part of a mafia of ten, or ten thousand. It might be practical of the individual to not complain, but that doesn't change what I did. If I don't pay taxes, armed agents hired by the government will take me away and lock me in a cage.

Individual actions are judged differently then collective actions, yes a person forcefully taking wealth from other individuals is theft but if a state takes wealth from an individual to benefit society then it is fundamentally different because it helps everyone instead of just the people who engage in the wealth extraction.

Your taxes fund the infrastructure and education that allows society to function, which benefits you and everyone you care about (assuming that such people exist).

Fundamentally the libertarian view of the atomized individual who is beholden to no-one has no connection to reality, we're all connected and dependent on others whether we realize it or not. Therefore doing our duty to benefit the group if efficacious and justified can never be wrong.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 16th 2019 at 11:02:34 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#271704: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:02:01 PM

Oh dear...

Taxes are not theft. The thing about pooling money together for the greater good is, its for the greater good. So you directly benefit from it, meaning that it is more a transaction that you're obligated to make than anything else. In short, the base minimum you are expected to do to help other people.

Greed will always exist, but mitigating it by taxes is the bare minimum of effort one can put in to combat it.

Edit: [nja] again.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 16th 2019 at 11:02:26 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271705: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:03:28 PM

Taxes being theft conveniently makes individual property the property of the citizen complaining not the government.

I.e. "I own it because I say so."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:03:41 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#271706: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:08:35 PM

Also, as a matter of simple reality, there's no real practical way to avoid taxes unless you choose to live as a hermit somewhere or in some small commune. If you want to be part of conventional society, well, it requires large governments and those governments need resources in order to perform their role, i.e taxes. If you insist on not paying up, then you might as well not use any of the things the government creates, like roads, schools, public transportation, health care, and so on. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271707: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:12:23 PM

I used to be best friends with a Libertarian and he passionately believed in countless things about consent to be ruled, freedom, and so on.

He at least walked the walk and wanted to live in the woods and eventually moved to Vermont.

But I was like, "This is a very silly way to look at the world."

Listen to the story of this guy:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-galton-wanted-libertarian-paradise-in-anarchapulco-he-got-bullets-instead

Yes, his name really is John Galton.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:13:32 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#271708: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:13:59 PM

I confess I've come to view the Libertarian viewpoint (as I understand it at least) as very naive. I think this discussion helps illustrate why.

[up] What's the significance of the name?

[down] At the very least, the old 'No taxation without representation' doesn't apply.

Edited by sgamer82 on Feb 16th 2019 at 9:15:42 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#271709: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:14:29 PM

@Wisewillow: Easy counter-argument: When a crime is being committed against you, who do you call? Yes, police in some communities might be cruel toward minorities, but in those cases it's either because the officer is bad (IE, not doing their job) or because the law is bad (in which case, the officer is enforcing the law in a community as intended). Neither one reflects badly on the concept of police. Certain laws should exist, and they should be enforced by police.

@Soban: Another counter-argument I'd make is that the community itself signed up for it. After all, the tax codes are set by elected representatives. Society agreed to it.

Moreover, private property as a concept is maintained by force. Same goes for rights in general. A citizen's property is only 'theirs' because the state says so, and the state says so because the citizen agrees to the duties of citizenship.

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271710: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:15:28 PM

I've come to believe it has a lot of motivations in racism and classicism. There's a sense that a lot of these people are chiefly concerned about being forced to give up "their" money to other communities and people they don't like. It's a way of establishing themselves as lords of their own little kingdoms.

Mind you, I think it's a kind of Diet Objectivism by nature as well with Rand's more....out there...ideas shaved off but still the same nonsensical theology (atheology?).

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:16:11 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#271711: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:15:50 PM

What's the significance of the name?

I believe there's an Ayn Rand character by that name.

[up]That and "you can't tell me what to do, you're not my mom!".

Edited by Draghinazzo on Feb 16th 2019 at 12:16:19 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#271712: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:19:37 PM

but I don't pay any taxes to Brazil.

Sure you do, you pay taxes to the US government, who pays money on your behalf either directly to the Brazilian government or to other groups (like say the UN) who provide money to the government of Brazil.

No free lunch for you, breath deeply, because you paid for that oxygen.

I decide that the solution to this problem is to point a gun at some rich people and demand their money.

But what if it’s not their money? What if it’s your organisations money that you lent to them on condition that they pay you when you ask and how much you ask?

If I don't pay taxes, armed agents hired by the government will take me away and lock me in a cage.

Sure because it’s the government’s money and you’re trying to steal it from the government by keeping it from the government.

Now there’s an argument about taxation of non-resident US citizens who don’t use dollars being theft, they’re not on the US government’s land or using its stuff (be it money or roads), except they are, they’re still using their citizenship, they can always surrender their citizenship and become free of US government taxes.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271713: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:20:18 PM

Ayn Rand is an interesting philosopher for the fact she "cheated" in the fact she put all of her philosophies in works of fiction (think Left Behind for atheists who were also douchebag conservatives—versus the many kind and loving ones I know). The joke being her 600+ page books had her philosophy magically proven right.

John Galt is The Messiah of most famous work as he's a super rich genius who decides to create a secret city in the middle of the Western United States called Galt's Gulch. There, he recruits a few thousand millionaire genius inventors. Without these pioneers of intellect and wealth, human city degenerates into a Enemy Civil War and all the "parasites" and "looters" wipe each other out. They then proceed to recolonize humanity without them.

Atlas Shrugged is considered the Bible for many Tech-Bros and hundreds of libeterians who wish to create their own anarchist-capitalist paradises. She's also very popular among survivalists. Alan Greenspan (the man who was in charge of the US economy for decades) was famously one of her disciples—I mean literally she ran a cult and he was a high ranking member.

Objectivism is fun for many philosophy teachers in that inevitably, at least once a year, someone in the class will get angry she's not being taught as a pioneer of modern philosophy and the person who had the secret to solving all of the world's problems.

To summarize everything you need to know about Objectivism. It is a philosophy that says it is totally objective and thus everything about it is right, unlike other philosophies.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:22:20 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271714: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:21:09 PM

I confess I've come to view the Libertarian viewpoint (as I understand it at least) as very naive. I think this discussion helps illustrate why.

Yeah, at best Libertarians are well-intentioned if privileged people who don't understand life where ones merit is held back by scarcity.

At worst they've selfish individuals who religiously follow "fuck you got mine" and use that to inform all of their policy positions.

@Wisewillow: Easy counter-argument: When a crime is being committed against you, who do you call? Yes, police in some communities might be cruel toward minorities, but in those cases it's either because the officer is bad (IE, not doing their job) or because the law is bad (in which case, the officer is enforcing the law in a community as intended). Neither one reflects badly on the concept of police. Certain laws should exist, and they should be enforced by police.

There's a third option, the institution they belong to is rotten.

America's law enforcement is so insanely decentralized that quality tends to vary largely, which means that quite a few departments are horrifically bad, such as how the FBI has previously investigated White Supremacist infiltration of Law Enforcement.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#271715: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:21:54 PM

@sgamer82 "John Galt" is a major character in the book Atlas Shrugged by the very libertarian (but, to her credit, staunchly anti-anarchist) author/philosopher Ayn Rand.

John Galt is intended to be the embodiment of Ayn Rand's philosophy, and is basically Andrew Ryan from Bioshock, but portrayed in a completely positive light.

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271716: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:24:57 PM

It's impressively an inverse of Christianity (given the GOP's proclaimed love of both) and communism both but has elements of both.

Its a utopian philosophy that proclaims the world will become a paradise once all the unbelievers are destroyed. The people who don't believe in unregulated free market capitalism, the worship of selfishness, the demonization of altruism, and a belief in total logic as long as it doesn't contradict any of the above points.

Paul Ryan worshiped the book.

Peter Thiel does as well.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:25:40 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271717: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:26:18 PM

Easy counter-argument: When a crime is being committed against you, who do you call? Yes, police in some communities might be cruel toward minorities, but in those cases it's either because the officer is bad (IE, not doing their job) or because the law is bad (in which case, the officer is enforcing the law in a community as intended). Neither one reflects badly on the concept of police. Certain laws should exist, and they should be enforced by police.

I don’t trust the police; I’ve called them once to report stolen packages in my neighborhood, and I regretted it and was uncomfortable the whole time the cop was in my house. And I’m a cisgender white woman.

Cops choose where to focus their efforts. And it’s not on solving every theft or sexual assault or murder. It’s on drug cases, and those cases mostly involve surveilling communities of color. Cops aren’t busting the weed dealer at the rich private school and arresting all his friends. They’re not patrolling the streets in rich neighborhoods looking for white kids acting suspicious. Our system of policing is rotten.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 16th 2019 at 11:29:47 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#271718: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:46:42 PM

@Wisewillow: Whether or not "our system" is rotten is not the issue. There are many other systems of police out there. I'm not comparing our system of police to other systems of police. I'm saying that there are systems of police preferable to anarchy. Heck, I'd even say the vast majority of them, even including our system (it's a pretty low bar).

And again, that police in America are focusing on harming minorities is either because they, specifically, are not doing their job-or because the law is wrong (in which case, they are doing their job). Neither excuses them, personally, but it doesn't say much about police as a concept.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:48:10 AM

Leviticus 19:34
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#271719: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:04:44 PM

I've heard anarcho-communists argue for the abolition of a formal police system (as having one is authoritarian) in favor of voluntary intervention and communal handling of corrective behaviors. However it sounds like something would run into major logistical issues above a certain population size.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271720: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:07:12 PM

Generally, all anarcho-capitalist states tend to be lawless hellholes or fail miserably.

Violence, particularly gun violence, is also very common.

There's a lot of claimed ones but they're really militias or cults with one dictatorial head. They also get ignored by the police even if people disappear into them and never come out.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 16th 2019 at 9:08:03 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#271721: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:07:49 PM

I'm talking about anarcho-communists, not anarcho-capitalists.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#271722: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:07:51 PM

[up][up][up]Also, 'communal handing for corrective behaviors' sounds an awful lot like a nice way of saying 'justice by way of angry mob'. Which, of course, when you look at history, you can clearly see that that's never been a bad thing for underprivileged groups.

Edited by Gilphon on Feb 16th 2019 at 12:09:19 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271723: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:08:41 PM

Anarcho-communists have a slightly better record.

Generally exile is the usual punishment.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#271724: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:11:29 PM

[up][up] The ones I talked to emphasized rehabilitation as a goal, although it could certainly be abused in that way.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#271725: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:18:51 PM

Honestly, I can work with the argument that taxation is theft. However, I don't axiomatically assume that you have any right to be free from theft in the absence of a government, because in such absence, you have no rights that you can't defend. That's what government is: it's a monopoly on coercive authority, and it has the power to decide what rights you have.

Property rights exist either because you have the power to defend them or because the government has set up a structure for doing so.

Edited by Ramidel on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:20:20 AM


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