TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#271676: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:02:38 PM

Not to mention that is only half on him: the economy was on a boom since Obama took the POTUS seat, and while the Trump administration does have the merit of making the ball keep rolling, he's not, by far, the saviour he makes himself out to be.

Not that his brainwashed followers are going to believe a word of that, of course, but the point is to convince the moderates that the Democrat candidate is going to be better than what the USA has now.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271677: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:04:34 PM

Not to mention that is only half on him: the economy was on a boom since Obama took the POTUS seat, and while the Trump administration does have the merit of making the ball keep rolling, he's not, by far, the saviour he makes himself out to be.

Not that his brainwashed followers are going to believe a word of that, of course, but the point is to convince the moderates that the Democrat candidate is going to be better than what the USA has now.

Eh, Presidents are rewarded for good economic conditions and punished for bad.

From an electoral perspective, it doesn't really matter who's responsible.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#271678: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:13:25 PM

Quite. People always give the President the blame/credit for how the economy's doing, no matter how much or little the President had to do with it.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#271679: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:14:00 PM

[nja] Presidents are rewards for good economic conditions, regardless of if their decisions made the situation better or worse.

Edited by Soban on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:14:28 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#271680: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:18:18 PM

I know the person who was carrying on the argument got banned so this is a bit late, but on the subject of corporate taxes: Amazon didn't pay any federal income taxes this year or last. Apparently neither did Netflix.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#271681: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:18:47 PM

Well, that seems quite a stupid attitude, but there's no helping it if it's the nature of the electoral base.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271682: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:20:59 PM

Well, that seems quite a stupid attitude, but there's no helping it if it's the nature of the electoral base.

Yeah, the economy is complex and people only really care when their lives clearly get worse (or more rarely get better).

Correct attributing economic conditions to specific Presidents is beyond the abilities and interests of most of the electorate.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#271683: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:22:16 PM

I remember reading once that the President at the time of the Stock Market Crash (Hoover, I think?) was basically blamed for it and the Depression, even though his own policies hadn't really impacted that much either way.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#271684: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:48:14 PM

If we cut the corporate tax rate by a third, we would lose roughly 3% of our total tax income. Given that we do have a high rate compared to other countries, I think that bringing our rate to be more inline with theirs could encourage companies to come here to make that up.

I'm personally in favor of a single unified tax. That is, we only tax one thing and we tax it consistently with few loopholes. Personally, I think one interesting way would be a progressive income tax with a negative income tax at the lowest levels.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271685: Feb 16th 2019 at 5:51:49 PM

Hoover was blamed for the fact he didn't do anything about it period. He was a great believer in the market turning around naturally because the alternative was SOCIALISM.

Also, Hoover did try to generate jobs by kidnapping hundreds of thousands of Mexican men and exiling them across the border.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation

He was a truly evil piece of shit.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 16th 2019 at 5:52:03 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271687: Feb 16th 2019 at 6:18:51 PM

[up][up][up] I’d say what happened with Fox Conn is a good rejoinder to the idea that dropping corporate tax rates is useful.

Also, considering all the expense of relocating, dropping corporate taxes 3% isn’t much of a carrot. And we shouldn’t be giving them carrots anyway because it doesn’t work.

MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#271688: Feb 16th 2019 at 6:34:49 PM

I know this probably isn't the right forum for it, but is there an appropriate thread to talk about this?:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/16/entertainment/jussie-smollett-attack/index.html

I'd say it relates pretty well to political and social issues

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#271689: Feb 16th 2019 at 6:38:29 PM

Already here and here. Pretty early to call it conclusive.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#271690: Feb 16th 2019 at 6:40:40 PM

I'm not immediately familiar with Foxconn off the top of my head. I didn't say cut them by 3%, I said by a third so to roughly 14%. 3% was of our total tax income.

I don't actually believe this, but my inner libertarian is dying to say it, sorry

Regardless, taxation is theft.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#271691: Feb 16th 2019 at 6:58:46 PM

Breathing clean air without paying taxes is theft of service.

Two can play at this game.

You’re in the US government’s house, you owe it rent or should leave (the fact that 99% of the world is some governments property is your problem not the governments).

Edited by Silasw on Feb 16th 2019 at 3:02:03 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#271692: Feb 16th 2019 at 6:59:14 PM

[up][up][up] Oh sorry. Thanks

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#271693: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:03:25 PM

>Breathing clean air without paying taxes is theft of service.

Ooh! Nice one! I'm fairly certain I know what arguments are under this one, but I'd rather have you elaborate them.

>You’re in the US government’s house, you owe it rent or should leave (the fact that 99% of the world is some governments property is your problem not the governments).

I've made pretty much this exact argument in other conversations. It's one that I like.

Edited by Soban on Feb 16th 2019 at 10:05:06 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#271694: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:19:06 PM

The US government is a key actor in ensuring that the air over the US is clean, when you benefit from that servicing you are using the government. Hell considering that much of the oxygen you breath will have been made by trees on federal land there’s an argument that regardless of the air’s quality by breathing oxygen within the US you are consuming a product of the US government.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#271695: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:32:55 PM

Taxes are necessary to prevent a "free rider problem". A lot of what the government provides are what I call "Vapor Assets"-they're things of monetary value that can not be excluded from people.

A good example would be police. For various reasons, you can't enforce laws without enforcing laws for an entire community. Ergo, anyone in that community not paying taxes to help fund the police department is a moocher. And having it be privately funded would create a lot of incentive problems, too. The military is also a great example of this.

Other examples include fire departments, schooling, certain forms of R&D, lighthouses, and environmental protections.

Leviticus 19:34
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271696: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:34:34 PM

For various reasons, you can't enforce laws without enforcing laws for an entire community.

I literally just went HA really loudly. Lololol laws aren’t enforced on entire communities; they’re predominantly enforced on poor people and people of color.

golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#271697: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:38:41 PM

Yeah, police are a bad example here.

Regardless, though, taxation is definitely not theft, and the entire notion that it is is extremely misinformed on how the relationship between the governing body and the citizens actually functions.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#271698: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:38:44 PM

[up][up] In theory at least. Unfortunately, that’s not always the case in practice.

Edited by megaeliz on Feb 16th 2019 at 10:39:28 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271699: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:41:01 PM

Yeah, police are a bad example here.

I wouldn't say police are a bad example after all Protagonist's argument was just that police have to enforce laws upon the entire community to function. Which they do. Law Enforcement doesn't do it equitably but they still do it.

Protagonist's point stands.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 16th 2019 at 10:44:39 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#271700: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:46:42 PM

I like!

Counterargument: More than 20 percent of the world oxygen is produced in the Amazon Rainforest, but I don't pay any taxes to Brazil. I didn't ask the US government to clean the air. It's certainly nice that have, but that I get to breath 'their' air is an externality. Keeping the clean air that we have and cleaning future air problems are things that we can solve more efficiently without government intervention.

Regarding Taxation being theft. Say for a moment that I founded a charitable organization dedicated to keeping the air clean through various methods. However, because not enough people donate to my charity, we aren't able to meet our objectives and the air gets dirtier. I decide that the solution to this problem is to point a gun at some rich people and demand their money. With the funds so secured, we are able to clean the air and the day is saved.

Even with the most noble of intentions, I think we can all agree that what I did was theft. It doesn't suddenly not become theft if I was part of a mafia of ten, or ten thousand. It might be practical of the individual to not complain, but that doesn't change what I did. If I don't pay taxes, armed agents hired by the government will take me away and lock me in a cage.


Total posts: 417,856
Top