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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#271376: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:22:50 PM

If Trump refuses to sign the bill before its voted on, most of the GOP will (probably) pull a 180, and withdraw support to avoid clashing with him.

If he does an unannounced, last minute veto, that's a crapton of egg on Republican faces.

UPDATE: Mitch Mc Connel is now saying that Trump will sign the bill, but will also declare a national emergency to get more funding.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/government-shutdown-february-2019/h_2e68599e38f96ead52ec4dbf7c79cb62

Buckle the fuck up people.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Feb 14th 2019 at 4:24:29 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#271377: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:29:18 PM

Nuclear power generation as a replacement for fossil fuels has a very large start up cost associated with building several dozen new facilities (at a minimum- more if we don't combine it with solar power plants located in the desert regions). But that start up cost can be covered by subtracting it from the economic savings projected to come from switching to a sustainable model of economic development. In the long run (over the next 50-100 years) we would save money by going nuclear.

The real long term problems are the safety issues associated with decommissioning old nuclear plants and disposing of the waste.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#271378: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:34:04 PM

From Politico's Jake Sherman:

WOW.. Mc Connell interuppted grassley speech to announce the vote and national emergency. Grassley just SCREAMED at Mc Connell: “you’re rude. You’re just simply rude.” Said it would’ve taken 5 minutes for him to finish.

Edited by tclittle on Feb 14th 2019 at 2:38:08 PM

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#271379: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:35:56 PM

[up][up][up] Didn't I just say that? Oh well, you get the page-topper, I'll let you take the credit for that one

[up] Wow, for once I agree with the old pterodactyl from Iowa.

When he's right, he's right

Edited by MrHellboy on Feb 14th 2019 at 2:36:35 PM

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271380: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:38:46 PM

[up][up]Damn [lol]

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271381: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:43:18 PM

I’ll just be over here having a panic attack because declaring a national emergency is flagrantly unjustified and unlawful, and our democracy is teetering on the edge of a cliff.

I’m not joking or exaggerating, one of my law school profs has mentioned this in class because it’s relevant to studying Admin law, and this is very very bad.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#271382: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:45:24 PM

I'm willing to bet there are countless federal judges who agree with you too.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#271383: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:45:51 PM

[up][up][up][up]In my defense, your post wasn't even a minute before mine so...eat[nja].tongue

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Feb 14th 2019 at 4:46:01 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#271384: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:46:20 PM

I have a feeling the national emergency won't even last that long,or get the desired result

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#271385: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:47:29 PM

The thought that hits me is just how urgent is this emergency when everyone knows you've been planning to declare it for at least a month?

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271386: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:48:18 PM

[up][up][up][up] There’s also lots of federal judges appointed by Trump and lots of Mc Connell type judges. Remember, SCOTUS allowed the last version Muslim Ban. I’m not confident in the courts to save us. And even if SCOTUS rules against him, Trump might pull an Andrew Jackson.

SCOTUS told Jackson no Trail of Tears. Jackson told SCOTUS they could enforce their own ruling and did it anyway.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 14th 2019 at 3:48:43 PM

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#271387: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:48:27 PM

Declaring a national emergency was obvious from miles away.

It's the wall. It's the one thing he cannot lose.

Edited by Eschaton on Feb 14th 2019 at 12:48:49 PM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#271388: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:49:10 PM

More to the point, how the hell is it an emergency when you've been crowing about it for years, but only started talking about bypassing Congress after you got thrashed in the Midterms?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#271389: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:52:03 PM

> Trump might pull an Andrew Jackson.

Let's hope he's too ignorant of history to understand how he did it,he knows about the trail of tears but I don't expect him to know that much else.

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 14th 2019 at 8:52:22 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271390: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:52:06 PM

I’ll just be over here having a panic attack because declaring a national emergency is flagrantly unjustified and unlawful, and our democracy is teetering on the edge of a cliff.

I’m not joking or exaggerating, one of my law school profs has mentioned this in class because it’s relevant to studying Admin law, and this is very very bad.

I don't buy it.

Even if it's true dejure that doesn't make it true defacto.

Trump in no way has the competence or political capital to use the state of emergency to seriously harm our democracy, he's pissed off the two groups most necessary to have a hard or soft coup (i.e the intelligence services and military).

Declaring a state of emergency for the wall just means that 1) he gets bogged down in unpopularity and lawsuits and 2) he establishes the precedent thus allowing Democratic Presidents declaring a state of emergency to deal with climate change.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 14th 2019 at 3:52:59 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#271391: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:53:19 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up] Well if that's the way you're gonna be about it, I'm taking it back tongue

wisewillow: I wouldn't worry too much. The SC may be extreme, but they're not stupid

Edited by MrHellboy on Feb 14th 2019 at 2:53:33 PM

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#271392: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:55:19 PM

With these right-wing judges? Eeeeehhhhh...

Edited by Eschaton on Feb 14th 2019 at 12:56:01 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271393: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:56:07 PM

wisewillow: I wouldn't worry too much. The SC may be extreme, but they're not stupid

This.

They'd have to be without an ounce of self-preservation to not realize that if they create the precedent for the President to declare a state of emergency to fund their pet issue then you can bet that Democrats will absolutely do it to fund efforts against climate change.

With these right-wing judges? Eeeeehhhhh...

See above.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 14th 2019 at 3:56:50 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271394: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:57:50 PM

Trump in no way has the competence or political capital to use the state of emergency to seriously harm our democracy

He doesn’t need it. He is a bully by instinct and nature; a bull in a china shop may smash things to pieces without comprehending precisely what he’s doing. And his advisors are awful, authoritarian inspired white supremacists and Ivy League types. Never underestimate how much those type can get away with. Look at the reporting- the mainstream media coverage isn’t throwing a raging panic attack about how wrong and dangerous this is; they’re reporting it like a football game.

They'd have to be without an ounce of self-preservation to not realize that if they create the precedent for the President to declare a state of emergency to fund their pet issue then you can bet that Democrats will absolutely do it to fund efforts against climate change.

SCOTUS is for life. They can let Trump get away with it and then find some grounds, baseless or not, to distinguish a Dem trying to do something similar and prohibit such action. This is why Mc Connell stole a seat.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 14th 2019 at 3:59:27 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#271395: Feb 14th 2019 at 1:02:13 PM

Trump could be bluffing on the national emergency,ie, he thinks threatening to do will make the Democrats give him the funding just to avert it,but that might be too forward thinking even for him

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271396: Feb 14th 2019 at 1:03:08 PM

He doesn’t need it. He is a bully by instinct and nature; a bull in a china shop may smash things to pieces without comprehending precisely what he’s doing. And his advisors are awful, authoritarian inspired white supremacists and Ivy League types. Never underestimate how much those type can get away with. Look at the reporting- the mainstream media coverage isn’t throwing a raging panic attack about how wrong and dangerous this is; they’re reporting it like a football game.

Uh no, absolutely not.

Bulls in China shops don't establish authoritarian rule, subverting democracy on a national scale takes work. Something that Trump and his administration have not demonstrated they are especially capable of doing.

I'm sure they'd love to make their own Russia but none of them are Putin.

SCOTUS is for life. They can let Trump get away with it and then find some grounds, baseless or not, to distinguish a Dem trying to do something similar and prohibit such action. This is why Mc Connell stole a seat.

Right, but there's this little thing called court packing. If they go crazy and ignore the precedents then they're going to give the Dems an opportunity to pack the courts, and they know it.

The Supreme Court has neither armed forces nor capacity to raise funds, its power is solely derived from its legitimacy and doing this would shoot that to hell.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271397: Feb 14th 2019 at 1:05:34 PM

Bulls in China shops don't establish authoritarian rule, subverting democracy on a national scale takes work. Something that Trump and his administration have not demonstrated they are especially capable of doing.

Trump’s children openly wield power in defiance of all precedent and security clearance problems. His businesses are in open violation of the emoulements clause. Evil need not be smart to cause devastation.

Trump has been packing the courts since he took office. Mc Connell blocked Obama from appointing dozens of district and court of appeals judges, not just Merrick Garland. The Dems can’t pack seats that are already filled with lifetime appointees.

SCOTUS has rubber stamped bad decisions before. See: Korematsu.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 14th 2019 at 4:08:24 AM

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#271398: Feb 14th 2019 at 1:09:23 PM

Again, the United States political system reveals another flaw through Trump: if the president can declare a national emergency to circumvent Congress, what's the point in trying to negotiate with them anymore?

Life is unfair...
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271399: Feb 14th 2019 at 1:10:39 PM

Trump has been packing the courts since he took office. Mc Connell blocked Obama from appointing dozens of district and court of appeals judges, not just Merrick Garland. The Dems can’t pack seats that are already filled with lifetime appointees.

SCOTUS has rubber stamped bad decisions before. See: Korematsu.

I'm talking about packing the Supreme Court, which is something we can do if they go complete moron and ignore legitimacy.

Honestly, your concern is kind of baffling. Trump literally just clearly lost shutting down the government over the wall, and you expect him to not horribly crash and burn from doing something even more unpopular over that same wall?

I get that you're worried and I feel for you but from where I'm standing this is just a continuation of Trump's desperate desire to discover his approval rating's floor.

Again, the United States political system reveals another flaw through Trump: if the president can declare a national emergency to circumvent Congress, what's the point in trying to negotiate with them anymore?

The President can't actually do that, Trump fixated on declaring the emergency because he's an authoritarian moron who doesn't understand authoritarianism.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 14th 2019 at 4:11:27 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#271400: Feb 14th 2019 at 1:13:14 PM

Even without the Evil Turtle's efforts at court packing, judges in Common Law systems typically give lots of discretion to presidents on national security matters as a) judges are not typically qualified to judge a national security matter and b( separation of power concerns. So I think people are way overoptimistic at expecting them to stop Trump.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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