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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#271351: Feb 14th 2019 at 9:39:39 AM

CNN is breaking that Amazon is canceling its plans to build its secondary HQ in NYC, citing community backlash.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#271353: Feb 14th 2019 at 10:11:57 AM

That land was apparently slated for affordable housing, medical complexes, and public parks, so good.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#271354: Feb 14th 2019 at 10:17:57 AM

A Reuters notification I just got that should surprise no one:

"William Barr gets enough votes in Senate to be confirmed as attorney general" - Get updates at Reuters.com

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#271355: Feb 14th 2019 at 10:32:35 AM

Not good.

Barr was very influential it getting the criminals involved in Iran Contra pardoned, has been openly disdainful of the Mueller investigation, and refused to say he'd respect it or deliver the report to Congress.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#271356: Feb 14th 2019 at 10:55:07 AM

Here's hoping that Mueller and (especially) his peers at the state level are too far along to stop by now.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#271357: Feb 14th 2019 at 10:55:56 AM

As the website's "Token Jewish Member" (well, not really, but I know that I am wont to post when Judaism is being discussed), I feel like I have to contribute to the discussion of Omar's comments.

So IMO (and I think I'm speaking for a lot of liberal/left wing Jews here), they did come across as at least somewhat anti-Semitic. I mean I can't speak to what's in her heart, but whether deliberately or not, she was using anti-Semitic tropes of Jews being greedy and controlling things with money. And it doesn't help that the person she flippantly replied about AIPAC (Batya Ungar-Sargon) is herself left-wing, and it does strike me that Omar must have come into the conversation with some kind of false preconception of American Jews as politically conservative/ making bad faith assertions of anti-Semitism.

Now I and pretty much everyone else is not at all in favor of Omar being expelled from Congress, and not only is right wing anti-Semitism a much bigger threat than left wing anti-Semitism (at least in America), but it's disgustingly hypocritical how Trump and co. have pretended to care about anti-Semitism when themselves using worse rhetoric that painted Jews as being greedy and controlling things with money.

But speaking of false preconceptions about American Jews, I take issue with this post from Hail Muffins/ the article mentioned in the post:

I've read an article on that once, where the author pointed out that the American-Jewish community has, thanks to its overzealous efforts to shut down any criticism of Israel, helped put an actual anti-Semite on the White House.

After all, the political ideology of those who wholeheartedly support Israel (the right, particularly the Bible Belt IIRC) are also the ones more likely to be prejudiced themselves, or so it argued.

I think I've come across the same article or at least someone else asserting the same kind of thing (Eli Valley) and it came across to me as a good illustration of "not anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist that was actually kind of anti-Semitic".

American Jews are overwhelmingly liberal/left wing, and even ones who are conservative have tended to be "Never Trump" Republicans, to the end that Trump got 19% of Jewish votes, which I think is the least percentage of any demographic except for African Americans. Also, while I don't deny that there is an alliance between (some) Jews and Evangelical Christians in terms of support for Israel, I'm going to put it out there that Jews are very aware of Evangelical anti-Semitism, and even people who are pursuing that alliance, are not stupid.

Further, Jews are a really small percentage of the American population, unlike Evangelical Christians, who make up a quite large percentage. So I'm really going to side eye anyone "blaming the Jews for Trump", or relatedly, blaming the Jews for the bad faith attacks on Omar, which are overwhelmingly coming from Evangelical Christians.

And going full circle, part of what came across as anti-Semitic in her comments (again, I can't speak to her intent) is the implication that the small percentage of American Jews were responsible for America's Israel Policy. As opposed to Evangelical Christians. And support for Israel at least traditionally being a popular policy position.

Tl; dr, please don't blame the Jews.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271358: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:09:55 AM

[up][awesome]

That is not happening any time soon in America. Vegetarianism as part of an economic program would require Americans to sacrifice their hamburgers, and we are not going to do that.

On the plus side, cow-fart backpacks are renewable energy.

I will point out that vat-grown meat is being developed, so moving away from industrial farming in the not too distant future is more than possible.

And that would do wonders for sustainability.

Of the current crop of candidates, who are you guys supporting for the Democratic primary next year?

So far?

In order:

1. Gillibrand: I really like her work against sexual assault in the military, which as someone who considers feminist positions to be extremely important is a major plus for me. Furthermore, she's majorly moved to the left in the past which is great. Overall I think she has a lot of potential as a candidate.

2. Harris: Her positions are good but her criminal record history is a liability that I'm not as fond of, overall I don't like her as much as Gillibrand but I'm still fond of her.

3. Warren: Warren's social and economic policy is rather great, not sure how strong a candidate she'd be but I'm willing to keep an open mind.

In other news, there's a group of people legitimately coming out against Omar for going after Abrams, saying it's because he's Jewish. And just fuck off with that talk. Everyone calling Omar an anti-Semite for not being pro-Israel is seriously just moving the conversation from actual Islamophobia and anti-Semitism on the right to party infighting.

Her initial statement was absolutely problematic, just because bad faith actors have abused it does not mean that equating all support of Israel to money is any less problematic and vaguely anti-semitic.

I don't think people should call Omar an anti-semite, her reaction shows that she isn't. Actual anti-semites double down and deflect, she accepted responsibility and showed that she was willing to listen.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 14th 2019 at 2:11:56 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#271359: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:13:05 AM

[up][up]I'm Jewish too, and I agree with a lot of that. Jews are absolutely not even close to responsible for Trump, it's mostly Christians who are to blame, just look at Pence.

As a general rule, anyone who talks about Jewish people using these terms: "controlling, banks, money, greedy, manipulating, etc" is being anti-Semitic. You can criticize Isreal without being anti-Semitic, but you can also criticize Isreal while being super anti-Semitic. Whether you have a legitimate point or not, racism tends to muddy your validity.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Feb 14th 2019 at 12:13:41 PM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#271360: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:13:27 AM

[up][up][awesome]

Thank you. That's my take on it too. I am glad at her response, and I wasn't coming into the situation with a negative preconception of her. Quite the opposite. Which is part of why I'm really not glad at people who say she shouldn't have apologized and blame American Jews for the super bad faith takes of people like Mike Pence.

Edit- Semi-[nja] Re "our beloved Vice President". Who incidentally is the same guy who brought a fake Rabbi to commemorate the victims of the Tree of Life Synagogue massacre.

Edited by Hodor2 on Feb 14th 2019 at 1:15:23 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271361: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:22:35 AM

For those who aren't in the loop (for some reason this thread never actually talked about it), Vox has a great article that explains the controversy and why Omar's statement was anti-semitic.

Ilhan Omar’s tweet revealed core truths about anti-Semitism in America

The controversy erupted because Omar tweeted that Politicians support for Israel is "all about the Benjamins".

This is problematic on several levels.

Firstly on the factual level, while it's true that lobbying plays a role to state it as the only or most important reason for support for Israel is just false. As the article says:

There are two problems here: First, the tweet isn’t true. The US-Israel alliance has deeper and more fundamental roots than just cash, including the legacy of Cold War geopolitics, evangelical theology, and shared strategic interests in counterterrorism. Lobbying certainly plays a role, but to say that “US political leaders” defending Israel is “all” about money is to radically misstate how America’s Israel politics work (and discount the findings of the scholars who study it).

And why it's anti-semitic has been already explained excellently by Hodor 2 and Pushover Media Critic but the article also has a great explanation so I'll include that:

Second, and more important, totalizing statements like this play into the most troubling anti-Semitic stereotypes. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an infamous early-20th-century Russian forgery, describes a plot by Jewish moneyed interests to subvert and destroy Christian societies through their finances. This in turn draws on longstanding European anti-Semitic traditions that portray Jews as greedy and conniving.

After World War II and the creation of the state of Israel, the conspiracy theory shifted. Anti-Semites started using “Zionist” or “Zio” as a stand-in for “Jewish,” using Jewish activism in favor of the Jewish state as proof that they were right all along about the Jewish conspiracy. David Duke, the former Louisiana state representative and Ku Klux Klan grand wizard, released a You Tube video in 2014 that bills itself as an “illustrated” update of the Protocols. The video features footage of leading Democratic and Republican politicians speaking to pro-Israel groups, with the caption “both are in the grips of Zio money, Zio media, and Zio bankers.”

“Do you really think, in politics, that he who pays the piper doesn’t call the tune?” Duke asks rhetorically.

Omar is, of course, not coming from the same hateful place as Duke is. But by using too-similar language, she unintentionally provides mainstream cover for these conspiracy theories. After her comments, Duke repeatedly defended her, even tweeting a meme that said “it took a Muslim congresswoman to actually stand up & tell the truth that we ALL know” (he rescinded the praise after her apology).

This is not to equate Duke and Omar — which, to be clear, would be absurd — but rather to point out how if you’re not careful when talking about pro-Israel lobbying, you can provide ammunition to some awful people. By saying that US support for Israel is “all” about money, Omar was essentially mainstreaming ideas that have their roots in anti-Semitism, helping make them more acceptable to voice on the left.

I'd recommend everyone who's interested to read the article fully.

Ultimately what Omar said was absolutely anti-semitic and she should've apologized, in my opinion (and the opinion of the author) Omar apologized in a really great way that clearly showed that she had been listening and was willing to admit wrongdoing. And that's a good and necessary thing.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#271362: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:24:41 AM

Could someone explain who this Omar woman is, exactly? I must have missed why she's in the spotlight (besides some potentially anti-Semitic language).

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#271363: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:24:52 AM

Of the current crop of candidates, who are you guys supporting for the Democratic primary next year?

Oh, uh...Warren probably? She's pushing to the Left on Economics, and on social issues she's shown a willingness to apologize that's refreshing. This is not to say I find Warren perfect or even good, but she's still on the top of my list. If she gets other candidates to go in her direction, I'd consider her bid well spent.

Next down is Gillibrand, a solid second choice. A poorer past record and a better current one, a willingness to change for the better. I can respect that. Moreover, standing up to Al Franken gets major respect points from me.

Third, I guess Harris. I likely won't support her unless she apologizes and tries to work past her worse policies as prosecutor in general and against Trans prisoners in particular (which to me is an absolute dealbreaker even on top of all the other stuff). The reason she ranks so high, of course, is that I'm not terribly fond of most of the other current and potential (looking at you, Sanders and O'Rourke) candidates who are likely to be contenders.

[up] Ilhan Omar is one of the new Congresspeople, in kinda the same circles as Rashida Tlaib and AOC. She caught flack for making anti-semetic comments (as explained above) and apologized.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 14th 2019 at 2:26:23 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271364: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:26:07 AM

Could someone explain who this Omar woman is, exactly? I must have missed why she's in the spotlight (besides some potentially anti-Semitic language).

Sorry about that, she's a newer Democratic Representative from Minnesota.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 14th 2019 at 2:26:49 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#271365: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:30:35 AM

That's not the only anti-semitic tweet she has made though, she previously accused Israel of "hypnotizing the world", with all the connotations it carries. Along with accusing Lindsey Graham of being compromised with no evidence, I'm not a fan of hers at all.

Life is unfair...
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271366: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:32:40 AM

That's not the only anti-semitic tweet she has made though, she previously accused Israel of "hypnotizing the world", with all the connotations it carries. Along with accusing Lindsey Graham of being compromised with no evidence, I'm not a fan of hers at all.

Absolutely, I think my opinion will rely on where she goes from here.

If she takes the lesson to heart and doesn't express anti-semitic sentiments? Then we're all good.

If she doesn't? Then yeah I'll have a problem with her too.

But right now she gave a good apology and I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but it's not unreasonable if you aren't.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#271367: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:43:13 AM

@Grafite-

Yeah, I did have some impression that it "wasn't her first rodeo". I do recall those statements now that you mention them.

The hypnotizing statement was really not cool. While I'm glad she did apologize at that time, I really hope this time now will be her last time.

And I remember that mini-controversy about Lindsay Graham, which I find kind of amusing, because she herself didn't really say anything offensive, but the reason why it was taken as offensive (IMO mostly in bad faith) was because of other peoples' dirty minds/ a larger context (rumor) about Graham.

So basically, there's a rumor that Graham is an Armored Closet Gay and there have been various homophobic jokes/speculation that Graham has done a 180 on his opinions toward Trump because Russia has some Kompromat on him of this nature. However, this kind of thing is something I really more associate with liberals/ Never Trump types than leftists. In fact, for what it's worth, leftists have tended to condemn this kind of thing. Ditto the jokes about Trump being the "passive partner" in a relationship with Putin. So, I wouldn't necessarily think Omar would be alluding to it, since I'd consider her on more of the leftist side of the Democratic Party.

And with that background, you get a weird situation where people are accusing Omar of making a homophobic joke at Graham's expense, seemingly more because of what they think about Graham, than about anything that Omar actually said or implied.

Edit- edited for clarity.

Edited by Hodor2 on Feb 14th 2019 at 1:56:42 PM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#271368: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:51:21 AM

Re: The current Presidential candidates:

The three 2020 Democrats Trump's campaign is watching most closely The president's campaign is collecting opposition research on Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren and Cory Booker. Trump himself has his eye on Joe Biden.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/14/trump-2020-strategy-democrats-1169379

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#271369: Feb 14th 2019 at 11:58:34 AM

> Trump himself has his eye on Joe Biden

Joe unintentionally being used to distract Trump and it's working

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#271370: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:02:30 PM

Trump's advisors are (anonymously) leaking that they are getting worried that Trump won't sign the funding bill meant to prevent another partial shutdown in less than 36 hours. Apparently its due to the far-right media getting on his case again. The bill is supposed to be voted on this evening.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/politics/donald-trump-wall-funding-bill/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#271371: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:08:55 PM

Possibly silly question: Is there a difference between Trump not signing the deal and actively trying to veto it?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#271372: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:11:02 PM

Yes, an unsigned bill does automatically become law after ten days minus Sundays unless Congress adjourns in the meantime.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#271374: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:13:31 PM

California Prop 55, extension in 2016. 37% against/63% for extending a tax increase
Your own argument is a ballot measure that passed with a comfortable margin? 60%+ is generally a landslide vote. That wasn't even close.
Because the money and the political will for it don't exist,
The money does exist. If we raise tax rates back up to pre-Nixon levels, we'll have the money and then some.
One reactor is one thing. Creating a bunch of them across the USA is another thing entirely.
Exactly how many nuclear reactors do you think we need to supplement renewable energy? I don't think we need all that many, regular or breeder, so building a couple more reactors doesn't bother me.
If you stop climate change by setting those people on fire, then you have accomplished nothing.
But setting them on fire would increase our CO2 production!
that would likely lead to some of her supporters decrying her as a sell-out or something.
Yes, but most of the forum is pretty fed up with the unicorn brigade type of Democrat. I don't think we should let that be the stumbling point.
It's kind of the opposite extreme of deficit hawks' paranoid fear of deficit spending
What deficit hawks? We have the GOP, who are only against deficit spending when it will help someone other than the 1%, and Democrats, who tend towards better fiscal responsibility only because they don't try to give more millions to the billionaires every election. The US doesn't have any deficit hawks, nor are we likely to elect any.
Lesson here is not "Money printing is the problem" it is "Do not get your key industrial infrastructure occupied by the French".
... What if Gandhi nukes them in response to their occupation?
Of the current crop of candidates, who are you guys supporting for the Democratic primary next year?
My current leader is Warren, but truthfully, anyone who's declared for the Dem primary would get my vote in the general election.
they are getting worried that Trump won't sign the funding bill meant to prevent another partial shutdown in less than 36 hours.
Oh boy. Because the last one went so well for America.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#271375: Feb 14th 2019 at 12:22:18 PM

So, it looks like he's going to both sign the bill to prevent another shutdown AND declare a national emergency:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/trump-decides-whether-to-sign-border-security-deal-to-avoid-shutdown.html

This is good news, yes?

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.

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