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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
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I'm extremely wary of the whole Green New Deal initiative given the wholesale dismissal by major activist organizations backing it
of market based solutions like carbon trading along with nuclear power and carbon capture. Anti-nuclear woo from the left is arguably part of the reason why climate change is such a serious and imminent problem, and without carbon capture there's no conceivable scenario where temperature increases are constrained to regimes that are non-catastrophic.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:11:12 PM
I will point out that the actual GND does not have anti-nuclear power positions in it, so while that common viewpoint is unfortunate that's not a good reason to be skeptical of the Green New Deal. Any initiative to fight climate change is going to be tainted with those unhelpful views, it comes with the territory.
Furthermore, I for one don't blame them for dismissing market-based solutions. Climate change is here and we cannot afford to let the free market blunder around. We need national centralized programs to retool our economy to a more sustainable form, in short, we need a Green New Deal.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:16:43 PM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang![]()
We've been pumping smoke into the atmosphere since the 1800s and the Industrial Revolution at least, so I fail to see why climate change being urgent is the Left's fault.
But even so, I highly doubt the GND will go through as is, so we may see Nuclear plants included yet.
Edit:
Also this.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:17:06 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerThis really needs to be emphasized, the Green New Deal is more of an ambitious declaration of purpose than a specific unchanging bill.
It will be amended and just because there are problematic bits does not mean that the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater, we need the kind of ambitious action it represents.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:18:59 PM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangMarket based policy solutions have an extremely strong track record when it comes to other pollution and environmental issues, and the limited experience we have with carbon trading policies suggests they work as advertised.
Oil companies sticking their heads into the sand for decades probably deserve the lion's share of blame, but if climate change had been taken seriously back in the 70s and 80s nuclear energy was literally the only alternative to fossil fuels, so anti-nuclear activism was the next major stumbling block IMO.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:27:30 PM
Market based solutions also tend to follow market rules, which tends to end up putting the burden on the lower class.
Heck, this is why the group mentioned pulled their support for carbon capture. Because they were concerned that any harmful products would be shipped over near poorer communities and communities with many POC.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:25:33 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerAnd? Addressing climate change is vastly more important than wealth inequality, and market based solutions are far more politically feasible than centralized state run solutions, and probably just as effective if the incentives are properly managed.
I am wary about carbon capture as a) I am doubtful that it would ever be economical and b) depending on how it works it might be a hazardous technology á la geoengineering.
I also think that many of these Green New Deal proposals are not simply climate change legislation; they are also anti poverty and social justice legislation. Folks might remember that "Carbon taxes being regressive" is an often voiced complaint about them - social justice aspects are important in discussions on climate change mitigation.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Yes, but it also might be great; right now solar and wind are looking great, but it's not that hard for the tables to turn if say energy storage technology hits a brick wall and stagnates. Dismissing options like carbon capture, nuclear power, and geoengineering is more or less putting all our eggs in one basket.
"It's fine if the situation gets even worse for the poor so long as the rich don't need to worry about the end of the world"? Wow. What a marvellous outcome that would be. Having nothing and living in an even worse environment, all for the long term benefit that this system will have done its best to ensure neither you nor your descendants will enjoy.
Exxon lied for 40 years about knowing that their actions were actively causing climate change, so I trust the market 0%.
I’m a law student. We read a lot of cases. And “the market” isn’t what usually causes companies to radically change what they’re doing, especially when the current mode is raking in the money short term. It’s new laws and/or massive lawsuits that force change. See also: seat belts and Ralph Nader.
Edited by wisewillow on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:43:52 PM
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The market is what got us into this mess. The market will not get us out. We need to do something, and that requires the Government to get involved. Market solutions can supplement, but if you want a solution that pushes both Social Justice and helps save the planet, so that everyone can enjoy having a planet, I'd push for something like the GND at the very least.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:47:39 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerAnd since I've already said that just because Republicans turn on it does not mean that the rest of the public will this in no way contradicts my point.
Fact: The Green New Deal is highly popular.
There is no reason to believe that it will suddenly change.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThat does seem like a ridiculous concern as those who will turn on it once they learn who's supporting it are the people we frankly don't care about. They're a lost cause.
It's the moderates we're worried about winning over, and the Democrats we're worried about driving away. If, in a blind test, moderates and Democrats support the bill, we don't have to worry about them not supporting it once they know who's proposing it.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.There is no reason to believe that it will suddenly change.
This isn't to say I think this decline is inevitable, or that the GND won't pass or get implemented in some form. But I think that the Dems do need to be prepared to face this kind of optics in the next year. Hopefully be pre-emptively showing how the GND will benefit "small town America" and thereby putting a stumbling block in place for the GOP as they try to appease the billionaires who don't give a shit about the planet compared to next quarter's profit margin.
That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - SilaswAnother "Kentucky is a dystopian hellhole" story:
The Appalachians are a very good place if you ever want to see what a cyberpunk dystopia would look like (just without the technology). Coal, Tobacco, and Steel Corporations have had control over the region for the better part of a hundred years in an almost literal way with only a brief period of pushback from unions and the governments. The people are indoctrinated to the point of every other license plate proclaims their love of coal and they have the Red-est government ever.
The market knows only how to do one thing - protect those who have money as unfettered capitalism just means that the existing corporations will do anything to stifle innovation and competition. The same companies ruling today are the same companie ruling 75 Years Ago with the same families to an extent.
(And the fact they keep making steel in Kentucky despite it making no money shows a lot)
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 13th 2019 at 12:27:05 PM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.The incident at the Lincoln memorial between the attendees of the March for Life and the Indigenous People's March last month was found by a third party investigation firm to have no evidence of offensive or racist statements or actions committed by the students.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/13/us/covington-catholic-high-school-report/index.html?utm_content=2019-02-13T20%3A27%3A57&utm_source=twCNN&utm_term=link&utm_medium=social
Anyhoo, tl;dr, the Church's law firm said "nah, totes not racist."
This is a gem, though (emphasis mine):"We found no evidence of offensive or racist statements by students to Mr. Phillips or members of his group," the report said. "Some students performed a 'tomahawk chop' to the beat of Mr. Phillips' drumming and some joined in Mr. Phillips' chant."
Because there's nothing offensive or racist about performing an action that Native groups have spent years trying to get teams to stop doing, and nothing mocking about joining a chant you don't understand.
Edited by Larkmarn on Feb 13th 2019 at 4:12:45 AM
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
I'm not commenting on it, my words are literally just what CNN had to say about it. This is straight from the article. Also, the investigation was conducted by a complete third party - they weren't taking orders from anybody. Whenever I post an article, please read it before you comment on it.
Edited by Friendperson on Feb 13th 2019 at 12:59:51 PM

"On the ropes, reeling from the pain and lashing out blindly in predictable patterns brought about by panic," being the answer, apparently.
She took him to the bloody cleaners. This oh-so Mitchy, playbook response proves it.
Edited by Euodiachloris on Feb 13th 2019 at 6:43:55 PM