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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#271126: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:19:16 PM

Nice to see that the perfect remains a bitter enemy of the good.

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Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#271127: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:57:38 PM

Even that Trever Noah video you posted mocked the fact that Trump got even less money than he would have before the shutdown.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#271128: Feb 13th 2019 at 12:09:10 AM

McConnell: Senate will vote on the Green New Deal. I think we all know that his point here is to say "Hahaha, lok at this stupid bill!". Harry Reid did something similar with Paul Ryan's Medicare reforms.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#271129: Feb 13th 2019 at 3:09:00 AM

Unless there actually is a decent sized faction in the Democrats that wants to do some more border security stuff I didn’t see why they couldn’t have gotten away with giving Trump practically nothing. Just find the border security organizations at previous levels and that’s it.

Trump has already signaled he’s going to want his wall one way or another and might veto this thing anyway, no reason to look like your acquiescing to any of his desires.

[up]If I’m remembering correctly it’s just a resolution, not even an actual bill so really there should be no reason for any of the Democrats to vote aganist it at this phase.

Edited by Mio on Feb 13th 2019 at 6:11:39 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#271130: Feb 13th 2019 at 3:37:36 AM

I think McConnell's expecting this to be a landslide brought about by in-fighting. It's a direct attempt to push back against AOC and other freshmen like her who are supporting the Green New Deal.

AOC's been making a lot of waves in Washington, and Mitch is rushing her resolution to vote as a way of saying, "Does anyone actually care what this idiot thinks?" With the hopes that Democrats will answer with a roaring "No!", AOC will "learn her place", and Congress will settle back into "business as usual".

Maybe that's just me, but I absolutely see this as an attempt to silence AOC and curb her steadily growing influence.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 13th 2019 at 4:38:17 AM

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3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
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#271131: Feb 13th 2019 at 3:51:44 AM

And if the Dems had gone 'Haha no' on anything in Border security and it had ended in another shutdown the blame would have been way evener assigned.

Giving some compromise in this is without compromising Core No's is the sane long term play, no matter how short term satisfying a middle finger would be.

This is not surrendering or caving in, this is the Dems offering a compromise position. If Trump slaps it out its then on him again.

Edited by 3of4 on Feb 13th 2019 at 12:55:47 PM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#271132: Feb 13th 2019 at 4:05:38 AM

> If Trump slaps it out its then on him again.

And if he tries to build a wall with the money it won't be enough,so he'll have to beg for more money,which gives the Dems even more of a advantage bargaining wise as each time he asks for money they'll give him less then he needs while the really important compromises are agreed upon.

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3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#271133: Feb 13th 2019 at 4:14:54 AM

And if he tries to pull the National Emergency thing it'll piss off a lot of GO Pers behind the scenes and cause an avalanche of lawsuits.

Edited by 3of4 on Feb 13th 2019 at 1:15:33 PM

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#271135: Feb 13th 2019 at 4:45:16 AM

@Tobias: That’s almost certainly the case. I just hope that some moderate Democrats don’t take the bait.

Also, if the Democrats really think this is the better move in the long run then fine, but I’m going to remain skeptical that this is the best they could do.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#271136: Feb 13th 2019 at 5:10:16 AM

This was never about a wall, nor was it ever about border security. It was about Trump getting his way in Congress without opposition. It was about xenophobia and scoring a symbolic victory by building a symbol of exclusion on our border. Trump might weasel a few billion from somewhere without Congressional approval, but that's the point: he couldnt get Congressional approval for his wall, and now all the world sees that there is an American opposition with some leverage.

As for "slatted fences" and ICE beds, that wasnt the promise he made during the campaign, so everyone but diehard MAGA's now sees how ineffective he is.

Seriously folks, accept your win when its handed to you. Doesnt mean the fight is over, or that the war is won, but for the moment, we get to feel good about ourselves.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#271137: Feb 13th 2019 at 5:10:42 AM

Would the democrats exchange "Funding" for the wall for universal healthcare?Would be a hell of a gambit to pull off

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3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#271138: Feb 13th 2019 at 5:17:22 AM

Would require a opposition you trust to keep their word.

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Bur from Flyover Country (Living Relic) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#271139: Feb 13th 2019 at 5:19:33 AM

Naturally, my senator has an idea! Yippee. Trump wants more money for border security. Missouri Sen. Blunt knows where to look

"If President Donald Trump isn't satisfied with the amount of money for border security in a proposed deal Congress could pass this week, Sen. Roy Blunt knows where he can find more.

Blunt, the No. 4 Republican in the U.S. Senate, was one of 17 lawmakers tasked with crafting a deal on border security to avert another shutdown.

The accord provides $1.375 billion for physical barriers at the southern border, significantly less than the $5.7 billion that Trump had demanded for a wall.

But Blunt and other GOP lawmakers say Trump can add more cash to the deal by using his transfer authority to steer already-appropriated funds toward border security-instead of declaring a national emergency. Blunt plans to talk to the president about places where he can find additional dollars.

As an example, the Missouri Republican pointed to nearly $900 million in anti-drug trafficking funds appropriated to the Department of Defense.

"I'm sure they very likely already have in mind what they'd like to do with that $881 million, but if the president was looking for $881 million that he controls he can look at what they wanted to do with it and decide if barriers would be a more important use," said Blunt, who helped shepherd the Defense budget to passage last year.

"It's certainly a specifically approved use in drug trafficking areas and these areas would all fit that definition."

Senate Majority Leader Mitch Mc Connell, R-Kentucky, said he would be supportive of the president employing "whatever tools he can legally use to enhance his efforts to secure the border."

Blunt said lawmakers would prefer Trump use his transfer authority to secure additional funds rather than declare a national emergency. In 2016, he urged President Barack Obama to exercise that prerogative to increase support for combating the Zika Virus.

Blunt has discussed this idea with Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-South Carolina, a close ally of Trump in the Senate.

However, Graham expressed skepticism Tuesday that there is enough money available through such shifts to reach the full amount Trump wants. He predicted that Trump would still pursue a national emergency declaration.

"There's some accounts that you would not need to declare an emergency over to access for barriers, but I don’t know that it gets you to 5.7 (billion)," Graham said.

Steve Ellis, the vice president of Taxpayers for Common Sense, a budget watchdog group, said GOP lawmakers are undermining their own authority as appropriators by encouraging Trump to shift funds within the budget to pay for a border wall.

"I recognize the bigger picture that they’re operating under, that they're desperate not to have another shutdown… to not have a fight with the president of their own party," Ellis said. "They're trying to find ways to keep the president from blowing this whole thing up."

The White House has previously said it is investigating other ways to fund a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border. One scenario floated has been to use money from the Army Corps of Engineers.

Ellis said the White House has still provided significantly fewer details about what it actually wants to construct at the border compared to any Army Corps of Engineers’ project currently budgeted.

"It does feel like you’re arguing over Jell-o rather than real substance," Ellis said.

Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, said he would support reshuffling already appropriated money in order to prevent another shutdown.

"There's no really good solution out there," Inhofe said. "It would be very easy to put holes in any of them. The issue here is whether or not things are going to shut down and I can't find a lot of members who want that to happen, so I’d say do something unpopular rather than nothing at all."

Trump’s administration faced backlash last year when it shifted money from the Federal Emergency Management Agency to Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Both agencies fall under the Department of Homeland Security budget, the same budget which would pay for a border wall.

But that transfer took place before Democrats took control of the U.S. House. Democrats would have new leverage if the agency sought to transfer money for a border wall."

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271140: Feb 13th 2019 at 8:31:01 AM

To summarize, due to how clickbaity the title is, the article (op-ed?) is an analysis by Chris Cillizza (whose name is familiar but I cannot place) suggesting that, between recent Democratic laws relating to abortion passed in New York and AOC's "Green New Deal", the Democrats are giving Trump issues he can rally his base around, as evidenced by his speeches in El Paso.

Chris Cillizza is pretty much the definition of a hack, he perfectly personifies the #bothsides narrative and is the main reason I view CNN as mediocre at best.

This article is a great example of how much of a piece of trash Cillizza is.

So no, if he thinks the Democrats standing for things is going to hurt them it's best to just file that under "Chris Cillizza doesn't know anything" and leave it at that. There is no reason to assume that supporting an extremely necessary and broadly popular program would hurt the Democrats.

Mc Connell: Senate will vote on the Green New Deal. I think we all know that his point here is to say "Hahaha, lok at this stupid bill!". Harry Reid did something similar with Paul Ryan's Medicare reforms.

Almost certainly, but considering how popular it is and how many people are concerned with Climate Change this is very likely to be a mistake on his part.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#271141: Feb 13th 2019 at 8:38:20 AM

Maybe, but people being concerned about Climate Change does not necessarily translate to them being happy with this resolution which is a lot more than just about climate change. I think Evil Turtle is banking on the resolution providing campaign ad fodder against the Democrats that voted for it. Of course the gamble won't work if this year the US is hit by a major climate change related disaster (and "major" means "much worse than Katrina") but that's not likely.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271142: Feb 13th 2019 at 8:48:24 AM

Maybe, but people being concerned about Climate Change does not necessarily translate to them being happy with this resolution which is a lot more than just about climate change. I think Evil Turtle is banking on the resolution providing campaign ad fodder against the Democrats that voted for it. Of course the gamble won't work if this year the US is hit by a major climate change related disaster (and "major" means "much worse than Katrina") but that's not likely.

I mean... in a vacuum you might be right but my post literally has a link which shows that the Green New Deal is widely popular amongst both parties. The idea that the Green New Deal will hurt the Democrats just seems to be an unfounded assumption held by Republicans and ignorant pundits.

I'm sure he does think it'll be useful against Democrats, after all, it's not unusual for a Republican to be massively out of touch.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 13th 2019 at 11:50:06 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#271143: Feb 13th 2019 at 8:52:40 AM

The Green New Deal is popular now but will it be on Election Day? Especially since The organizations behind the poll explained poll-takers avoided mentioning to respondents which representatives were backing the New Green Deal to prevent injecting bias. sounds like there is a cudgel to push the needle against the GND. And bipartisan support for anything often evaporates as elections approach and people start thinking more in party terms.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271144: Feb 13th 2019 at 8:57:06 AM

The Green New Deal is popular now but will it be on Election Day? Especially since The organizations behind the poll explained poll-takers avoided mentioning to respondents which representatives were backing the New Green Deal to prevent injecting bias. sounds like there is a cudgel to push the needle against the GND. And bipartisan support for anything often evaporates as elections approach and people start thinking more in party terms.

You're going to have to provide some evidence that there is a credible reason to believe that it could plausibly become unpopular on election day, even if Republicans stop liking it because of partisanship that doesn't mean the rest of the population will.

It makes far more sense that Mc Connel is simply choosing to die on this hill because he's out of touch and myopically wants something to rally around, I mean, Republicans literally believed that their tax bill was going to be a midterm winner. Being out of touch is very normal for them.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 13th 2019 at 11:57:34 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#271145: Feb 13th 2019 at 9:06:55 AM

A couple of things from https://currentstatus.io


Trump intends to sign border deal to avoid another shutdown – President Donald Trump intends to sign the border security deal to avoid another partial government shutdown, according to two sources who have spoken directly with the President.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/13/politics/trump-border-security-deal/index.html


Why Kamala Harris is glad people are asking if she's black enough – The candidate is looking to head off a problem that dogged Barack Obama.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/12/kamala-harris-2020-black-race-1167030

Edited by sgamer82 on Feb 13th 2019 at 10:11:46 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271146: Feb 13th 2019 at 9:22:13 AM

I would love for this to backfire horribly on the GOP.

After all, Mitch denying votes is his trademark move.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#271147: Feb 13th 2019 at 9:27:44 AM

[up]I fully expect the backblast to pin Mitch into the plaster two rooms over.

He's being remarkably tone-deaf. By trying to call AOC' s bluff like this, he's actively proving her points about the GOP.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#271148: Feb 13th 2019 at 9:29:02 AM

I don't expect it will. Mitch is a shrewd politician. He doesn't do things impulsively. I doubt he'd put this to vote if it had any chance of actually passing. There is no question that he already knows how the GOP is going to vote on the resolution ahead of time.

He wants to force Democrats to take an official position on the resolution, setting every Dem's opinion in stone. He's trying to draw a clear and unambigious line of division through the party, and then let human nature do what it will once the party's split into clearly-defined tribalist camps on the issue.

His best-case scenario is if a majority of Dems vote against the Green New Deal, because that would effectively be a signal to AOC and her supporters that nobody cares what they think and that they're wasting time trying to effect change. But even if all he gets is a 50/50 split and an increase in tribalist in-fighting, he still comes out on top.

His worst-case scenario is going to be if Dems come together with a majority in favor of the resolution, which still won't pass the Senate so long as the Right votes party-line as they do. But even that doesn't hurt him in any way; it just provides campaign fuel for down the road, with Fox News spinning the vote as "Democrats all support socialist revolution to tear down American norms".

We're playing defense on this one. There's no way to actually win this because the resolution actually passing is not on the table. We need to focus on damage control, and that means not being baited into in-fighting.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 13th 2019 at 10:31:13 AM

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Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#271149: Feb 13th 2019 at 9:34:22 AM

[up]My point is, the attempt to divide and conquer is just so flipping brazen: more so than usual.

It underlines to most onlookers that the only way the GOP knows how to win is to use hostages and dirty tactics. Which has been AOC's point all along. Worse... by using climate change as the crux.

Does he not realise how concerned about this a large chunk of the US is?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#271150: Feb 13th 2019 at 9:59:42 AM

[up]Exactly this.

He certainly intends to use this to divide the Democrats but I think he's miscalculated, the GND is highly popular and the Democrats aren't morons. Even if they have personal issues with it I'm sure they can all see that Mc Connel is trying to divide them.

I strongly predict that the Dems will rally around it and the Republicans will look out of touch as usual.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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