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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#271026: Feb 12th 2019 at 8:17:41 AM

Just to put a lid on claims of Democratic spineless fuck-uppery:

Analysis | Trump’s failed shutdown strategy produced an even worse deal than he started with – Trump would get some funding for border fencing. It wouldn't even be what he was originally offered.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/02/12/trumps-failed-shutdown-strategy-produced-an-even-worse-deal-than-he-started-with/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e494acc02694

An excerpt:

It has been about 12 hours since House and Senate negotiators reached a tentative deal to avert another government shutdown, and President Trump still hasn’t issued his all-important endorsement.

That may be because this deal is a pretty bitter pill to swallow. In fact, it’s probably a worse deal than Trump would have gotten if he had never shut down the government in the first place.

The deal as laid out does include some border fencing — $1.375 billion worth, or 55 miles. That’s well shy of the $5.7 billion and 200 miles in wall funding he demanded that led to the shutdown, but it’s not nothing. Trump could argue that he got something out of the 35-day government closure.

But only if you ignore two very important things.

One is that this compromise includes a concession to Democrats, too: a reduction in the number of detention beds. As The Post’s Erica Werner, Damian Paletta and Sean Sullivan report:

The deal omits a strict new cap Democrats had sought on immigrants detained within the United States — as opposed to at the border. At the same time, it limits overall levels of detention beds maintained by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, although GOP aides said ICE would have enough money and flexibility to maintain its current detention levels and add more when needed.

But the bigger issue is this: The amount of funding is actually shy of the original deal Republicans and Democrats reached last year that Trump rejected. At that time, the spending bill for the Department of Homeland Security included $1.6 billion for 65 miles of fencing, both slightly more than the current tentative deal.

This was the deal on the table (it passed 26 to 5 in the Senate Appropriations Committee in June) when Trump initially began demanding $5 billion for his wall. He’s now getting slightly less than that $1.6 billion while also making a concession to Democrats on detention beds.


Also:

GOP livid with Trump over ignored Khashoggi report It's the latest rift between Republicans and the president over foreign policy.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/11/gop-trump-ignored-khashoggi-report-1164487

Edited by sgamer82 on Feb 12th 2019 at 9:19:28 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271027: Feb 12th 2019 at 8:18:44 AM

I feel like any discussion of antifa violence has to be handled on an individual basis.

Why?

Because all violence should be.

And next, we have the point of, "How much condemnation should there be for punching a Nazi if you aren't an Actual Pacifist?" Because maybe the violence is something like breaking a car window of some guy they don't like. Or maybe it's punching a guy who brags about beating up queer kids.

I *AM* an Actual Pacifist but if I condemn all violence unilaterally then I'm going to be a hypocrite because the Nazis in my area are violent and use violence to intimidate others. When they don't, it's because people usually have driven them out and threatened to fight back.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 12th 2019 at 8:20:18 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#271028: Feb 12th 2019 at 8:23:41 AM

@Tobias: If such attitude is so rare, can it still be considered basic decency?

Regardless, it certainly puts him having greater support amongst black citizens percentage-wise in another light.

Edited by HailMuffins on Feb 12th 2019 at 1:23:54 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#271029: Feb 12th 2019 at 8:26:11 AM

A black associate's reaction was basically, "It required white people run media to be surprised by this sort of thing."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#271030: Feb 12th 2019 at 8:40:51 AM

@Soban:

Great! Then there isn't a reason to bring up the Antifa.

As for me, I think violence has no place in our political discourse and so this drunk guy hitting this cameraman is just as out of place and wrong as antifa violence.

...Yes, there is. I don't know if you've been living under a rock for the past few years, but every time someone brings up violence by the right, "WHAT ABOU ANTIFA?!" springs up.

There is every reason to discuss Antifa. Just because you enjoy peddling the "both sides!" argument, doesn't mean you can ignore what the right is doing and saying (which you have blatantly refused to actually condemn).

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#271031: Feb 12th 2019 at 8:47:00 AM

The possibility of violence needs to exist for any antifascist action to be useful. It doesn't need to be violent, but when you lead with an Actual Pacifist position, the movement and ideology lose any bite and you end up rolled over.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#271032: Feb 12th 2019 at 8:47:45 AM

Oy. Wind that war mentality back a little, please.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#271033: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:16:55 AM

[up][up][up] > "every time someone brings up violence by the right, "WHAT ABOU ANTIFA?!" springs up."

Probably because it's the image of violence on the left that comes to mind. If you are going to condemn someone for pushing around a cameraman. Then you may want to also condemn people who beat others with sticks.

>There is every reason to discuss Antifa

Not if we are being consistent with our positions. However, if we are being inconsistent and the antifa are an example of that inconsistency, then their fair game.

>doesn't mean you can ignore what the right is doing and saying

I don't believe that I argued that we should ignore this incident or argued that this was justified.

>which you have blatantly refused to actually condemn

In a post where you quote me as saying that violence doesn't have a place in our political discourse.

[up][up]The possibility of violence needs to exist for any antifascist action to be useful.

Certainly, however, I feel that we currently have s system where fascist violence can be taken care of by the system.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#271034: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:25:38 AM

The issue with bringing up antifa violence is that by doing so you are unintentionally carrying water for the far right. There’s no real reason to even mention it, considering that as touched on above antifa’s violent acts are basically non-existent while right wing terror is a very real issue.

It’s a fundamentally ridiculous argument.

They should have sent a poet.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271035: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:27:36 AM

[up][up]Setting aside that bringing up Antifa in response to the cameraman being assaulted is classic Whataboutism, I take issue with this statement:

I feel that we currently have s system where fascist violence can be taken care of by the system.

There is extensive evidence of white supremacists working as cops. Then there’s the cops who worked with neo-Nazis to arrest counter protestors. Who the neo-Nazis stabbed.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 12th 2019 at 12:27:54 PM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#271036: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:28:57 AM

Something else to consider:

The far-right is consistently killing people. Unless you can provide solid evidence of antifa racking up bodies like far-right/alt-right terrorists have, maybe don't try to play the "both sides" card.

i'm tired, my friend
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#271037: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:32:06 AM

Literally all that anyone said was "cue the cries of antifa" because that's what the right is going to do.

This all seems a bit of a misplaced discussion.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#271038: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:32:51 AM

Trying to discuss antifa violence as if it were as much of an issue as far right violence is pretty much a false equivalence.

[up]Except someone responded by asking rhetorically whether antifa violence isn't a problem or something. That's how we got to this point.

Edited by M84 on Feb 13th 2019 at 1:34:13 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#271039: Feb 12th 2019 at 9:35:43 AM

[up][up][up][up] [tup] Don't forget the violence by the Proud Boys in New York a few months ago, and the NYPD targeting the counter protesters instead until widespread attention was brought to bare.

One article on them.

'But ANTIFA' is a classic deflection and whataboutism, and I'm very skeptical towards anyone that shows tendencies to use that argument.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Feb 12th 2019 at 12:36:01 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#271040: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:26:58 AM

I'm almost 99% certain antifa doesn't exist and is a false flag thing by right-wingers to show how "dangerous" the lefties are.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#271041: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:33:53 AM

I mean, no, it exists. It's just not this all-powerful bogeyman the right makes it out to be.

It's not a false flag, but it is ironically a fascist's absolute dream. It's not organized, it's not actually a threat, and it sounds scary. Precisely the kind of bogeyman fascism needs.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#271042: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:34:43 AM

No they definitely exist but the alt right likes to point at them to make the left look hypocritical

How would you even fake their existence?

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 12th 2019 at 6:35:17 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#271043: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:35:36 AM

I mean, it exists, but it's largely not an organization- just a scattering of people who decide to fight back against Nazis.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#271044: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:37:58 AM

>I take issue with this statement: I feel that we currently have a system where fascist violence can be taken care of by the system.

@Wisewillow what is your solution to cops who do racist things?

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#271045: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:41:03 AM

... depending on the severity of the racism, fire them and don’t rehire them (racist cops have been fired by one police department and then hired by a different one) or put them through extensive anti-racist training.

Screen applicants for warning signs of racial bias. Review the social media of applicants- if they’re posting white supremacist stuff, don’t hire them. Actively train new cops to not be racially biased.

Racist cops are a danger to the public.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 12th 2019 at 1:41:24 PM

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#271046: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:55:38 AM

In a post where you quote me as saying that violence doesn't have a place in our political discourse.

Which is moot, because you're playing the "both sides" game. Come out against this shit when the right attacks, which is incredibly often and just happened, instead of when trying to say that the left are somehow just as bad.

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#271047: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:55:54 AM

My suggestion was tied then to a mule and run them out of town, but yours sounds good too, I guess.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#271048: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:57:18 AM

I'm almost 99% certain antifa doesn't exist and is a false flag thing by right-wingers to show how "dangerous" the lefties are.

Are you simply incapable of not trolling, even once?

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#271049: Feb 12th 2019 at 10:57:59 AM

that mule wouldn't go anywhere,stubbon things that they are

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 12th 2019 at 6:58:13 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#271050: Feb 12th 2019 at 11:01:23 AM

[up][up]

How is that sentence trolling? Legitimately the only time I've heard of or seen anything about antifa is when right-wingers bring it up to show how they feel "unsafe" or how "lefties are just as bad" at their racist rallies. As far as I've seen, they only exist when they need a scapegoat.

Edited by Friendperson on Feb 12th 2019 at 11:01:57 AM


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