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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#270276: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:04:51 PM

Seriously, "American Indian"? Not "Native American" at least?

To be fair, I've heard that which one to use often comes down to individual preference even among the actual indigenous people. Yeah, it's not technically correct, but things like this often aren't.

Edited by LSBK on Feb 6th 2019 at 4:05:57 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#270277: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:05:05 PM

[up][up]And it's not like they aren't experienced politicians either. All of them have years-long records of holding public office.

Edited by M84 on Feb 6th 2019 at 6:05:52 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#270278: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:14:28 PM

You know, from reading the Wikipedia article on the "Indian vs. Native" name controversy it says As of 1995, according to the US Census Bureau, 50% of people who identified as indigenous preferred the term American Indian, 37% preferred Native American, and the remainder preferred other terms or had no preference.[16].

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#270279: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:14:50 PM

American Indian is the term I've heard more often in modern parlance, actually. At least, here in California.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#270280: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:17:45 PM

I can only speak for myself and naturally I am German and not American, so thee might be a delay there, but I grew up with the term "Indianer" I think it was in the early 1990s when I first heard of the notion that one shouldn't use the term and that native american is the polite phrase, thank you very much. It was around the same time I learned that "Eskimo" are "Inuit" (and apparently that isn't always correct either, better ask) and that "Zigeuner" (German word for gypsy) should be respective Sinti and Roma.

As I said, language changes, and what is considered okay changes too.

danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#270281: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:21:56 PM

I think the thing with "Native American" was that they felt they weren't exactly given a choice in the matter and didn't want to be referred to as "American", native or not.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#270282: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:23:04 PM

The card was also made in '86 at which point American Indian was still in common parlance, even disregarding the debate over which to use (for which each of the terms has valid arguments).

[up]As well as debates over reclamation of the term, "Native American" sounding overly clinical and a second term forced upon them, etc.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 6th 2019 at 5:24:12 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270283: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:29:04 PM

Yeah but... Bernie also keeps not supporting Russian sanctions which is really weird.

While yeah, Russian interference was very much a "sow chaos however you can" thing but there's reason to think they wanted Bernie in office, certainly more than Hilary.

I wouldn't say it's really weird, Sanders is a committed dove and as such he's going to oppose sanctions even if they're against someone who interfered in our elections.

Which if anything is a rather bitting indictment of dovism.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270284: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:29:11 PM

@ Charles- I guess I'm wondering though why Gillebrand, Harris, Castro, Booker, Klobuchar, etc. are nowhere on your list even though they could also fill the repairman and/or builder roles.

Gemerally, I'm going to illustrate my ability to call political elections with all my zero experience by saying that I only think Harris has any chance of competiting against the above three. Name recognition and position is going to make sure that it falls down to a known brand.

Because it seems more obviously like the appeal has to be "comparably socially conservative white guy" than "good economic policy" if you are preferring Biden over say Gillebrand or Harris, especially because their economic policies are closer to Bernie's than Biden's is.

Do you know something about Warren I don't?

Harris is definitely someone I'd primary vote for above Biden but I mark him as a potential because I am confident of his ability to win both the Primary as well as election against Trump.

(I should clarify Biden is not even my 3rd choice but that a lot of people pile on Biden and I think that's unfair to the gaffe-filled moderate Democrat)

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 6th 2019 at 2:31:36 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270285: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:31:06 PM

Gemerally, I'm going to illustrate my ability to call political elections with all my zero experience by saying that I only think Harris has any chance of competiting against the above three. Name recognition and position is going to make sure that it falls down to a known brand.

Most people didn't know who Bernie Sanders was before 2016, I don't think name recognition is nearly as important as you might think.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 6th 2019 at 5:31:28 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#270286: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:31:27 PM

[up][up][up] I legitimately though being a dove/hawk related only to one's stance on the military and had little if anything to do with economics.

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Feb 6th 2019 at 5:31:47 AM

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270287: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:32:33 PM

Most people didn't know who Bernie Sanders was before 2016, I don't think name recognition is nearly as important as you might think.

Well I knew who Bernie was but I've always been an anti-authoritarian socialist.

If I had to pick I'd go Warren, Harris, and then Bernie.

Biden is a guy I think will probably win the nomination if Warren doesn't get it.

Biden is basically an Al Gore vote in that he's a reminder of the days before our national nightmare.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 6th 2019 at 2:34:28 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270288: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:34:01 PM

I legitimately though being a dove/hawk related only to one's stance on the military and had little if anything to do with economics.

It's about foreign policy priorities, military positions are a large part of it but not the only part.

Hawk is aggressive foreign policy and Dove is less aggressive foreign policy. Sanctions as tools meant to punish the economy/finances of governments are something that hawks generally support and doves generally don't.

Hence Sanders pointedly refusing to support sanctions against Russia.

Well I knew who Bernie was but I've always been an anti-authoritarian socialist.

If I had to pick I'd go Warren, Harris, and then Bernie.

Biden is a guy I think will probably win the nomination if Warren doesn't get it.

This doesn't really contradict my point.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 6th 2019 at 5:34:33 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#270289: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:36:03 PM

I still like Klobuchar, Harris and Gillibrand and I think Harris is probably the one most likely to win the primary.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270290: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:36:12 PM

I was illustrating I didn't disagree with your point necessarily.

[up]I think Harris' criminal justice history is going to be a major issue.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 6th 2019 at 2:37:54 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#270291: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:37:36 PM

What bird would you use as middle ground between the Dove and Hawk?

Genuine question

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270292: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:39:58 PM

What bird would you use as middle ground between the Dove and Hawk?

Genuine question

I wouldn't, Doves and Hawks represent certain end-points on the interventionism/pacifism scale and as such someone in the middle would just be a foreign policy moderate.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270293: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:42:19 PM

My issues with Harris' human rights record.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/1/23/18184192/kamala-harris-president-campaign-criminal-justice-record

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#270294: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:42:44 PM

Please write us a summary

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#270295: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:43:21 PM

@Charles-

Well I agree that Biden would make a good President and if you are only identifying Biden and Sanders as "better candidates" than they appear, then I can agree as far as that goes. And I'm not sure I would disagree about them being more electable than other candidates.

But to the extent that they are your favorites along with Warren, it seems pretty apparent to me that you must like them because you identify with them as "hard-scrabble white working class populists", more so than because of economic policies, because while Warren is good on that score and of course Sanders is your favorite, Biden's economic policies while good, are those of the various other Democratic candidates who you wouldn't vote for in the primary.

Edited by Hodor2 on Feb 6th 2019 at 4:45:07 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270296: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:45:44 PM

Again, Biden isn't even in the top 3 of my favored candidates.

The only reason I think he might be good not to dismiss outright is the situation could be one where we have to think about repairing the Trump administration's damage and going for a dependable low-risk candidate.

I'm well aware he's pretty much everything I disliked about Hillary. A lot of my optimism about radical pro-change candidates was blunted by Trump's election.

Economically Warren and Bernie are my go-tos.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270297: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:47:21 PM

Honestly, the idea that Biden would be a good candidate is extremely questionable.

The sheer amount of baggage he has cannot be understated, compared to him Harris just has some very minor image problems.

He seems like a nice guy and would probably make an ok President but as a candidate, he'd be really bad.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270298: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:49:36 PM

Please write us a summary

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/1/23/18184192/kamala-harris-president-campaign-criminal-justice-record

The short version being that Kamala Harris for all of her talk about being a prison reformer has actually repeatedly sided with private prisons, defended the death penalty, worked hard to prevent the early release of prisoners, and also made it a point not to follow up on investigating police shootings. There's also the fact she threatened children with jailtime and other draconian punishments for truancy. She very much has a record as a Clintonian "tough on crime" democrat.

On the other hand, it does say she handled things like 3 strikes laws better than most as she insisted the felonies must be violent in nature to apply them.

The ugliest part of the article is this:

For example, Harris’s office fought to release fewer prisoners, even after the US Supreme Court found that overcrowding in California prisons was so bad that it amounted to unconstitutional cruel and unusual punishment. At one point, her lawyers argued that the state couldn’t release some prisoners because it would deplete its pool for prison labor — but Harris quickly clarified that she was not aware her office was going with that argument until it was reported by media.

That's some unfortunate honesty.

Or consider Harris’s handling of appeals for release by innocent people in prison. In one case, her office argued against Daniel Larsen, who was proven innocent by the Innocence Project, because, Harris’s office claimed, he filed his petition for release far too late after a legal deadline. The court disagreed, allowing Larsen’s release in 2013. (In the New York Times, Bazelon lists several more such cases.)

What the fuck was that about?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 6th 2019 at 2:53:39 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#270299: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:50:28 PM

I'm actually of the opinion that Biden is one of the less safe candidates at this point. Too old, too seen as a has-been, being a white man isn't actually bearing out to dependable with Democrats like it used to be, long and well-documented history of gaffes, and so on.

Some of the wavering middle with lingering racism/sexism issues might be more inclined to vote for him than one of the other candidates but they might be just as easily persuaded not to because of the above. And he doesn't electrify the consistent Democrat base nearly as much as the rest do. He's more useful as an elder statesman who can use his influence to help rally attention to the front-runners than as one of the front-runners.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 6th 2019 at 5:53:08 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270300: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:52:47 PM

I'd be happy if it were the case or just situation. Generally, again, Biden's biggest selling point is not his race or sex but his association with the Golden Obama years.

"We need to make American Great like Obama did."

:)

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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