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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#270151: Feb 5th 2019 at 9:52:39 PM

[up][up][up][up]The American Dream is actually a pretty simple concept. It's the dream of being able to be whoever you want to be regardless of your birth. The American Dream is that the USA is a place where one's origins means nothing compared to the effort they put forth in achieving whatever they want in life. Because America is the land of the free and the home of the brave with no barriers like aristocracy to stop even the poorest of us from making a good life for ourselves and our loved ones.

Now of course, a lot of that is complicated by racism, economic factors, etc.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#270152: Feb 5th 2019 at 10:13:38 PM

The American Dream CAN mean different things to different people, but it's not an entirely nebulous concept either. What it means to many in practice is the idea that if you work hard enough ("bootstraps"), you can eventually triumph and move up socially, gaining more and more money until you make it to the top.

The thing is, it's a half-truth at best. It isn't impossible to "move up" but this idea often ends up being a platitude because of how much social mobility is subject to factors that aren't entirely in your control. A lot of people work very hard and can just barely put food on the table, and sometimes even that's difficult if they also have illnesses, disabilities, or other things that require unreasonable amounts of money relative to what they earn.

It's something you can only fully believe in if you're a cis white man, because the playing field will favor you.

Most people are never going to be in the 1% no matter how hard they work. It's not something you can brute force. That's why it's the 1%.

People seem to be realizing this now since according to what I've been reading, the idea of higher taxes on the wealthy is becoming more and more popular with voters. Which just makes the GOP even more undemocratic since they're protecting their own interests at the expense of what their constituents actually want.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#270153: Feb 5th 2019 at 10:16:36 PM

I would argue that it's more true now than it ever was. The economic barriers are as strong as ever, but the social ones are breaking down. Minorities are still in a bad position relative to cis straight white men, but things have been slowly (too slowly) getting better for them. The American Dream is more accessible for them now than it was in the past.

And a lot of people don't like that. Reactionaries are called that because they are reacting to change they don't like.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#270154: Feb 5th 2019 at 11:15:19 PM

[up][up][awesome]

Success is possible for some and I can vouch that there definitely have been success stories out there for immigrants who came with nothing more than the clothes on their backs. However, it's becoming more and more obvious how limited and down to the luck of the draw that can be, and even so, this success usually caps out at middle-of-the-middle class with even that becoming harder to reach as time goes on.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#270155: Feb 5th 2019 at 11:17:11 PM

What's happening is that people are more aware of the economic barriers hampering the American Dream. But it's still true that the cultural barriers that hamper it have been gradually breaking down.

A big part of why Trump won is because quite a few people didn't like that second part.

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#270156: Feb 6th 2019 at 12:21:08 AM

Back on the last page, I think that Democrats are pushing Abrams to run for Senate in 2020 since her close race in 2018 indicates she might have a chance to unseat the incumbent Senator David Perdue (R-GA) - you might remember him for a prayer in 2016 that could be interpreted as praying for Obama's death. And if my understanding is correct, Abrams herself is also eyeing that Senate run.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270157: Feb 6th 2019 at 2:45:38 AM

Stacey's speech was poorly received in a lot of places, sounding like platitudes or generic. I found it very nice. You can't specifically rebuttal all of Donald's nonsense.

I would vote for her for President or Senator, though. A pity she isn't running in Kentucky.

I loved one element of the Trump speech, though. When he said, "I want immigrants coming in the largest numbers ever!"

I like to think that took 15 years off Miller's life.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 6th 2019 at 2:51:16 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#270158: Feb 6th 2019 at 3:41:17 AM

You know, I am currently reading on FiveThirtyEight that Abrams's response was actually better received than usual for SOTU responses.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#270159: Feb 6th 2019 at 4:46:14 AM

The amount of people cheering during the State of the Union was disturbing, especially considering you got Pelosi cheering on "we will never have socialism."

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#270160: Feb 6th 2019 at 4:53:27 AM

I wonder if *some* of cheering was staged,I mean the entire thing is a staged event so the cheering being mandatory makes sense

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 6th 2019 at 12:59:01 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#270161: Feb 6th 2019 at 5:15:07 AM

Also, why give Trump the ammo by frowning on that.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#270162: Feb 6th 2019 at 5:22:43 AM

[up][up][up]The Democrats are still a Capitalist party, Pelosi herself said so.

No matter how popular “socialism” gets it is still one of the few things both parties agree on, so I imagine that it’s also a good opportunity for Democrats to not look completely contrarian to cheer that line.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#270163: Feb 6th 2019 at 5:59:18 AM

I also note that what most Americans who call politically for Socialism these days tends to be Social Democracy at best.

"You can reply to this Message!"
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#270164: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:11:34 AM

Yeah, actual socialist movements haven't been popular since Upton Sinclair. Still, politicians like Sanders and AOC are definitely shifting the conversation closer to socialism, and it is so fucking satisfying seeing establishment Dems and Libertarians alike clutch their pearls.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#270165: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:16:46 AM

I do believe very strongly that capitalism is either coming to or has already arrived at the end of its utility as an economic methodology. It was a motivator to get people into the workforce during a time in history when progress was carried on the backs of hard-working citizens.

But the winds of change have shifted. Progress no longer means "The harder your population works, the more we can get done. When as many people as possible are doing this work, progress is achieved."

Progress now means, "Building method that take jobs out of people's hands and put them into easier, more efficient methods of production. When as few people as possible are doing this work, progress is achieved."

To move forward, our society is now seeking to eliminate workforce, clear the human element out of entire career paths, even abolish entire industries that have become obsolete. We don't want everyone working in coal mines anymore. We don't even want coal mines! They aren't cost-effective, and neither are the people who only know how to be coal miners! It's cheaper, better for the environment, and more efficient for those jobs to be gone forever and for those people to consequentially be out of work.

We can retrain people, but that's just kicking the can down the road because eventually we'll eliminate the jobs we retrained them for too. The road to the future is eliminating huge swathes of America's workforce.

That doesn't work for capitalism. Capitalism demands that we always provide work for people that we frankly don't need to have working anymore. Capitalism demands that there always be availability of jobs that we don't want to have around anymore. As technology progresses and as the global economy becomes more interconnected, the job market is only going to keep on shrinking. There eventually will not be enough jobs, and then there never will be again. We may already be at that point.

Capitalism says that is unacceptable. So capitalism needs to go. It helped us get here, but it has nothing left to contribute to the future we're trying to create. It's not a bad model, but it is obsolete.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 6th 2019 at 7:19:38 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#270166: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:28:10 AM

Eh...we had countries trying to get rid of capitalism. Has never worked.

What has worked really well is finding a balance between capitalism and socialism. You will never be able to get capitalism completely out of the system, because no matter what, people will always trade with each other and money will always play a role. The trick is to utilize it better.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#270167: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:33:49 AM

Stacey's speech was poorly received in a lot of places

  • cough* Bernie Bros *cough*

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#270168: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:35:46 AM

you should a doctor about cough,and yes we know about the bernie bros you dont need to keep reminding us

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#270169: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:36:27 AM

More precisely, capitalism insists that competition for jobs is a desirable process, resulting in more capable and productive workers even as competition between producers results in better and more efficient products.

For capitalism to succeed, there must always be a motivation to better oneself to fit the available jobs (or go into business on one's own), and so some level of unemployment is desirable as an encouragement. "Do good work," capitalism insists, "or you'll be out of a job and unable to provide for yourself and your family." Now, we've modified raw capitalism to provide some support for people at the bottom, because we've realized that the social and economic costs of bread lines and poorhouses are too great. Even Adam Smith recognized this.

A world in which jobs are a scarcity and most people are unemployed or underemployed defeats this paradigm, because bettering oneself confers no advantage. A world in which people are able to maintain a standard of living even when they do not work eliminates part of the incentive to be productive as a worker. Further, these scenarios play hob with the psychology of human beings, because we are immersed in a culture that values work.

While I am fairly certain that our future ultimately lies in a post-work economy where the pressure to have a job in order to live well is eliminated, there are enormous hurdles to jump over along the way. If the libertarian capitalists get their way, this will be a nightmare dystopia in which the fabulously wealthy live in isolated enclaves enjoying unimaginable luxury while the rabble starve in the ruined streets. If the social democrats get their way, this will be a utopia in which each person freely chooses their life path based on whatever they enjoy and are good at.

Based on history, the actual result will be somewhere in the middle.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 6th 2019 at 9:39:56 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#270170: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:41:12 AM

Uh what? Bernie was and still is Abrams' biggest supporter. Like, that's just not true at all.

And come on, "Bernie bro" is just blatant erasure of the minority support Bernie has. He does weakest with white males, not strongest. There's this whole idea that cause he went for the working class he attracted this imaginary racist white male demographic, but that's based off the complete falsehood that white working class and working class are interchangeable terms.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#270171: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:49:55 AM

You know the only category where he beat Clinton in the primary based on age and race is "White 18-44", right?

Non-White 18-44 was narrow and 45+ is a landslide for Clinton on both sides of the racial boundary, but it was young and middle-aged Whites who really embraced the Sanders movement with open arms.

Part of which is because of his long, long established pattern of bigoted "tone-deaf" comments and actions.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 6th 2019 at 7:53:02 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#270172: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:56:58 AM

Yeah, but that's because it was such a close race. If you actually look at his approval ratings, it's actually minority demographics that like him percentage wise more than the white male majority. The thing is that during the 2016 election cycle, Clinton completely failed to address the death of the working class (especially ignoring the white male majority in exchange for minority support) and only provided establishment solutions that only continued their existing problems.

Edited by golgothasArisen on Feb 6th 2019 at 8:57:45 AM

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#270173: Feb 6th 2019 at 6:59:31 AM

Sanders appeals to a demographic that experiences significant economic anxiety but is largely blind to the problems of race. This is consistent with his own policy positions. These people are highly antagonistic towards wealth holders and banks, seeing them as a scapegoat for their woes. They have relatively poor economics education, because if they did, they'd see through the hollowness of his rhetoric.

I was enthusiastic about Sanders early in the 2016 primaries, because he was saying things that seemed to match my feelings about economic issues, but two things happened as I listened to him further:

  1. He kept repeating the same things over and over, as talking points, with no depth.
  2. When asked to provide deeper explanations for his ideas, with more details, he either balked or straight-out ignored the questions.

Then his civil rights stance started to look fuzzy and I decided that he talks a good game for the "I believe I know everything but can't be bothered to actually find out" crowd but has no real substance.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 6th 2019 at 9:59:56 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#270174: Feb 6th 2019 at 7:00:34 AM

Yes, clearly the guy who got arrested at civil rights demonstrations is shaky on civil rights.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#270175: Feb 6th 2019 at 7:01:51 AM

Not sure that there is worth in having another argument about this topic. Also, ~Sci Fi Slasher, where did you see that poor reception.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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