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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#270076: Feb 5th 2019 at 11:58:04 AM

However much it may rankle to hear it, the Founders were products of their time and for every progressive view they held, there was an opposing conservative view. Heck, there was a substantial call to make George Washington a king. You can't just ignore these factors when discussing the Constitution.

Many of the Founders were well aware that they were planting the seeds of a disastrous conflict over civil rights (a Civil War, if you will) when they put in the "three fifths of a person" wording, but there was simply no alternative if they wanted it signed. It's almost exactly the same problem that FDR faced when trying to implement the New Deal, and the problem that almost killed Obamacare.

Like it or not, the demographics of the United States often create terribly racist policies, because more of us than we care to admit harbor those beliefs even to this day. This is why there are protections built in so that acts that destroy liberty can be struck down by the courts, but those only work so long as the courts have people in them who don't hold those same views.


Now, this is not to say that a majority of people in the U.S. are substantially racist. However, the way the our government is designed allows a relatively small number of people to hold a dominant grasp on government, and not coincidentally these people tend to live in low-density areas that vote very, very red.

The Republican Party has done a masterful job of capitalizing on this by seizing control of state governments, using that control to gerrymander and install anti-democratic voting rules, and then parlaying that into a scenario in which Democrats have to win the public vote by double digits just to maintain majority control of government.

It allows a minority of voters to control our national policymaking. It is the exact opposite of tyranny of the majority. It is grotesque and immoral, and it works.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2019 at 3:00:53 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#270077: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:01:29 PM

I mean, hell. Women are considered a minority. Women, 50% of the population, are a disempowered minority. If that doesn't demonstrate the fundamental problem with how we define "Majority", then I don't know what will.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270078: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:05:29 PM

However much it may rankle to hear it, the Founders were products of their time and for every progressive view they held, there was an opposing conservative view. Heck, there was a substantial call to make George Washington a king. You can't just ignore these factors when discussing the Constitution.

Many of the Founders were well aware that they were planting the seeds of a disastrous conflict over civil rights (a Civil War, if you will) when they put in the "three fifths of a person" wording, but there was simply no alternative if they wanted it signed. It's almost exactly the same problem that FDR faced when trying to implement the New Deal, and the problem that almost killed Obamacare.

Like it or not, the demographics of the United States often create terribly racist policies, because more of us than we care to admit harbor those beliefs even to this day. This is why there are protections built in so that acts that destroy liberty can be struck down by the courts, but those only work so long as the courts have people in them who don't hold those same views.

If this is aimed at me I absolutely understand this, my point was just that the Founders focusing on one specific minority does not mean the Tyranny of the majority is a useless concept. It just means how they specifically addressed it was either useless or counterproductive from a perspective that cares about underprivileged minorities.

We obviously should judge them fairly and keep in mind the historical contexts.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 5th 2019 at 3:10:51 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#270079: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:06:54 PM

Well the thing is, "minority" is a sociological term as well and doesn't just refer to a numerical value. The two definitions often overlap to an extent, but it's not as 1:1 as many people would assume.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#270080: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:15:35 PM

[up]I was just about to comment this.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#270081: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:20:59 PM

Yes, but context matters. "Tyranny of the Majority" defines the Majority as numerical majority, not sociological.

The people who wield the most political power in America are

  • Wealthy
  • Heterosexual
  • Cis-gendered
  • White
  • Christian
  • Men

A single deviation from that list, and you're considered part of an underprivileged minority demographic by sociological definitions. However, I expect that nearly everyone reading this deviates from it in at least one category, probably two or more.

The empowered majority demographic represents a minority of voters, and as such it makes perfect sense that they would have "Tyranny of the Majority" as one of their major bogeymen. That one group wields entirely disproportionate power and has no interest in sharing that power with the overwhelming majority of Americans who do not fit neatly into their category.

This is by design. Protecting this narrow demographic's disproportionate power is avoiding "Tyranny of the Majority" as the Founding Fathers intended it.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 5th 2019 at 1:23:23 PM

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#270082: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:32:18 PM

Think about it this way: Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in 2016, but lost the election. We most definitely do not have tyranny of the majority in this country.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#270083: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:49:06 PM

Something from the What the Fuck Just Happened Today feed (which I'll post in full later):

Trump and Jared Kushner met with contractors at the White House to discuss building the border wall last week, despite senior Senate Republicans and members of GOP leadership raising concerns about Trump bypassing Congress and using an emergency declaration to build his wall. "Listen closely to the State of the Union," Trump said when asked if he was ready to announce a national emergency.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/05/politics/trump-contractors-border-wall-national-emergency/index.html

Edited by sgamer82 on Feb 5th 2019 at 1:49:42 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270084: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:51:10 PM

Bernie Sanders tweeted about Stacey Abrahams speaking for the Democratic Party in response to Donald Trump.

The first half of the tweet was nice in that he said he was looking forward to her speech (I'm a sucker for people complementing local politicians I like) but then he immediatly ruined everything but pushing his own response that he would be giving online.

Way to make it about yourself Sanders.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 5th 2019 at 3:51:26 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#270085: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:51:55 PM

Federal prosecutors are now seeking interviews with ranking members of the Trump Organization.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/05/politics/new-york-federal-prosecutors-trump-organization-executives/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#270086: Feb 5th 2019 at 12:53:47 PM

[up][up][up]I really wish reporters wouldn't ask him questions like that. It feels like they're giving him ideas, or at least keeping the idea in his mind.

And, like, most of them 'are you planning on committing a crime tomorrow?' is understood to not be an appropriate interview question, and by asking it like it's a normal one, it gets people to start thinking of Crimes as somebody people can casually admit to planning and suffer no consequences.

Edited by Gilphon on Feb 5th 2019 at 3:55:16 PM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#270087: Feb 5th 2019 at 1:00:29 PM

"I mean, hell. Women are considered a minority. Women, 50% of the population, are a disempowered minority. If that doesn't demonstrate the fundamental problem with how we define "Majority", then I don't know what will."

Incidently, the Colorado Legislature's lower house is majority women, and Nevada's entire Legislature's is majority women. I think the latter is a first in national history.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#270088: Feb 5th 2019 at 1:05:19 PM

.5% of the population are Native Americans.

They definitely need protection from Trump voters.

I'm just saying.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#270089: Feb 5th 2019 at 1:23:55 PM

@Fourthspartan: Regarding the Response to SOTU, according to Wikipedia multiple responses to it were sorta common before a (mostly) one-response era set in.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#270090: Feb 5th 2019 at 1:26:24 PM

The first half of the tweet was nice in that he said he was looking forward to her speech (I'm a sucker for people complementing local politicians I like) but then he immediatly ruined everything but pushing his own response that he would be giving online.

Way to make it about yourself Sanders.

Because of course he did.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#270091: Feb 5th 2019 at 1:43:24 PM

Reading the comments and see I someone claiming Stacey Abrahams is a supporter of Harris trying to "turn women against Bernie sanders"

lol wut

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#270092: Feb 5th 2019 at 1:46:46 PM

Again, not surprised.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270093: Feb 5th 2019 at 2:01:05 PM

@Fourthspartan: Regarding the Response to SOTU, according to Wikipedia multiple responses to it were sorta common before a (mostly) one-response era set in.

My problem is not that Sanders has his own response, my problem is that immediately after congratulating Stacey Abrams for being selected he made it about himself by pushing his response.

It's not a good look, especially considering that she's a black woman and he's an old white guy.

I don't think he did it because of racism or sexism, just the normal Sanders self-centered-ness, and tone deafness.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#270094: Feb 5th 2019 at 2:04:58 PM

OTOH, how many times are we going to excuse this sort of thing as "just" tone-deafness?

At some point you gotta wonder.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#270095: Feb 5th 2019 at 2:07:53 PM

Someone might argue it's his twitter so he's free to advise himself if he wants,on the other hand it's a strong argument for keeping tweets short

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#270096: Feb 5th 2019 at 2:09:16 PM

No one is saying he can't. It's just really bad form. And given the context of so many of his past gaffes when it comes to women and POC, it looks even worse.

Edited by M84 on Feb 5th 2019 at 6:09:48 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#270097: Feb 5th 2019 at 2:12:39 PM

••• OTOH, how many times are we going to excuse this sort of thing as "just" tone-deafness?

At some point you gotta wonder.

Yeah, just calling it tone deaf may be somewhat generous.

If we're being less generous it could be seen as simply another symptom of his indifference to anything that isn't his single issues.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#270098: Feb 5th 2019 at 2:22:48 PM

I mean it looks pretty obvious to me, he's using Abrams being chosen as a chance to try and hype himself, he's not congratulating Abrams for being chosen and then plugging his own stuff, he's plugging his own stuff and using Abrams as a way to make his plug more trendy.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#270099: Feb 5th 2019 at 2:27:16 PM

See, I was thinking that Abrams was actually a Sanderite or at least part of his political wing.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#270100: Feb 5th 2019 at 2:30:27 PM

I mean, we can ask ourselves "Would Sanders do anything different if anyone else not him was chosen?"


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