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archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#269176: Jan 29th 2019 at 8:53:32 AM

I guess the question now is really so what, then?

A return to the pre-19th century model of international relations where nations are equally matched, making internecine squabbling continuous? Should the US just take its ball and go home? Turn over military power to some other state?

For better or for worse, this is where we’re at, and it’s not likely to change any time soon. The US has tremendous power to do harm, but tremendous power to do good by the same virtue. There’s nobody else who can really be trusted with that either, and those few who could wouldn’t be able to wield it even if they had it. That’s where we are, and we should be trying to do good rather than sitting paralyzed because it might go wrong.

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#269177: Jan 29th 2019 at 8:54:20 AM

Damn, back then the world and a lot of its own people condemn America for not doing intervention in Rwanda. And now, a lot of people are all America shouldn't do anything. Of course, when a lot of people die later that is obviously and definitely what will happen, the same people are going America is a heartless country that left others to die like a dog. America just can't win, huh?

I guess we all should put all our faith in Russia and China. Nothing goes wrong when they are in charge.

Quite, the hypocrisy of a good chunk of the anti-interventionist left is galling.

If we make deals with dictators they criticize us for working with them but when we sanction or invade them they call us imperialists, there is quite literally no way to please them beyond embracing isolationism. And that just isn't acceptable morally or practically.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#269178: Jan 29th 2019 at 8:54:28 AM

One thing that I rarely see brought up with regards to the subject of isolationism vs interventionism is that, generally speaking, the US intervenes in global events because doing so is good for the US. The US does not play world police out of a sense of altruistic moral duty. The US plays world police because a stable, peaceful world is better for the US than a chaotic world rife with regional conflict.

This is one of the things that Trump gets entirely wrong about the US sending aide to other countries. He views it as a transaction, his logic is "we're paying you, you have to give us something in return". But the thing is that we only give money out to causes we want to see succeed in and of themselves. We give out military aide so that countries don't get invaded by their hostile neighbors, because war in that region would be bad for us. We give out humanitarian aide to help prevent a humanitarian crisis, because a humanitarian crisis in that region would be bad for us.

The core tenant of isolationism is that "over there" doesn't matter, so we should ignore it, because anything else is a cost with no benefit. This is absolutely false: the world is more interconnected than ever and things happening "over there" absolutely affect us even if we ignore them. Isolationism doesn't insulate us from those consequences, it just prevents us from dealing with them proactively.

Now, the flip side of that is that it's entirely possible to do interventionism badly. I suspect that this is what most people are pushing bad against when they promote isolationism over interventionism. Interventionism doesn't have to mean invading third-world countries for spurious reasons and then abandoning them after the shooting stops. Interventionism doesn't have to mean throwing our weight around and abusing the developing world for our own benefit. Interventionism can mean using a light touch to promote win-win scenarios where everyone involved in the situation comes out better off than if we hadn't intervened.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#269179: Jan 29th 2019 at 8:55:27 AM

[up][awesome]

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#269180: Jan 29th 2019 at 8:56:33 AM

Hiroshima was perfectly justified, Japan started the war and we ended it.

Hiroshima was the result of the US refusing to accept anything but an unconditional surrender, panicking when it realized that the Soviet Union were able to reorganize and push through northern China in preparation for an invasion of the Japanese Main Islands much faster than anticipated and would thus lead to a partition like in Germany... And the Pentagon deciding this would be an excellent opportunity to intimidate the entire world by deploying The Bomb.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the point where US participation in WW 2 turned from 'helping people oppressed by fascism' to 'making sure our interests are protected no matter the cost'.

Angry gets shit done.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#269181: Jan 29th 2019 at 8:56:35 AM

[up][up][up][up] I think it goes without saying that the US could absolutely be doing a better job at interventionism. That’s kind of indisputable.

From where I’m sitting, though, it seems like we should be actually trying rather than just giving up on the whole thing.

[up] Leftist deflection at its finest. What else would have ended the war with Japan? A ground invasion? Firebombing every last inch of the country? The atomic bomb was the lesser of all the evils available to us.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 29th 2019 at 8:59:19 AM

They should have sent a poet.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#269182: Jan 29th 2019 at 8:58:22 AM

Honestly, the takeaway I'm getting from all this is that US Interventionism is neither inherently good or bad, but individual instances of it can go either way. It's a very case-by-case thing.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#269183: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:00:50 AM

Honestly, the takeaway I'm getting from all this is that US Interventionism is neither inherently good or bad, but individual instances of it can go either way. It's a very case-by-case thing.

Which is exactly the position that everyone should take, withdrawing into our borders is not an option and destroying every country we dislike is also non-viable.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#269184: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:02:54 AM

[up][up][up] Most historians (I’ll pull sources on my lunch break unless someone beats me to it) have concluded that no, Japan was about to surrender.

The “we would have had to do a ground invasion at a terrible price” argument was a baseless excuse to drop two atomic bombs.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 29th 2019 at 12:03:20 PM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#269185: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:03:17 AM

>Sanders Supporter

Pfffthahahahahaha!

Okay, in seriousness, as this thread dislikes Sanders and really doesn't like Gabbard, I'd recommend not starting off your introduction like that.

Interventionism/Isolationism

I think this keeps getting ignored. We. Aren't. Altruistic. In. Our. Support. We can be the lesser of three evils, but we should recognize that our interventions aren't for the good of the people living in these places.

As for Rwanda, part of the controversy was that we intervened in Yugoslavia, but NOT Rwanda. Showing that we did indeed have a set of priorities lining up more in our interests than the common good, even if our intervention in Yugoslavia WAS for stopping a genocide. We only care about particular ones.

[up][up] See, I agree with that statement. I just feel like we should be more cautious (and maybe reign in the whole 'AMERICA F*CK YEAH" vibe I'm getting from some of the posters).

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#269186: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:03:34 AM

Damn, back then the world and a lot of its own people condemn America for not doing intervention in Rwanda.

They correctly condemn America for promising to commit forces and support to a UN Peacekeeping mission in Rwanda and then going back and forth on whether they actually would so long that the entire mission got delayed to the point that when it finally materialised, it was already way too late to prevent or mitigate the atrocities the mission was supposed to deal with.

Angry gets shit done.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#269187: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:06:01 AM

Most historians (I’ll pull sources on my lunch break unless someone beats me to it) have concluded that no, Japan was about to surrender.

The “we would have had to do a ground invasion at a terrible price” argument was a baseless excuse to drop two atomic bombs.

Even if this is true I don't especially care, Japan should've surrendered sooner.

Their state started the war and then dragged its feet about surrendering, the suffering of its people are entirely on their head.

I think this keeps getting ignored. We. Aren't. Altruistic. In. Our. Support. We can be the lesser of three evils, but we should recognize that our interventions aren't for the good of the people living in these places.

As for Rwanda, part of the controversy was that we intervened in Yugoslavia, but NOT Rwanda. Showing that we did indeed have a set of priorities lining up more in our interests than the common good, even if our intervention in Yugoslavia WAS for stopping a genocide. We only care about particular ones.

No international actors are ever purely or primarily altruistic, they always consider their interests. This is in no way a sin of the US', unless of course, you expect us to behave differently from everyone else, which is ironically American exceptionalist.

This does not mean that altruistic motives or ideals cannot be a part of foreign policy, and considering that the anti-interventionists are the people who would have us do nothing for Rwanda I don't see how this hurts our position. We're the ones who would've wanted the US to actually do something, this doesn't hurt our position, quite the opposite.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 29th 2019 at 12:10:34 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#269188: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:07:07 AM

Leftist deflection at its finest. What else would have ended the war with Japan? A ground invasion? Firebombing every last inch of the country? The atomic bomb was the lesser of all the evils available to us.

As wisewillow pointed out, Japan was on the edge of surrender already, because it didn't want Soviet troops landing on the Main Island any more than the US. Surrender negotiations were already under-way when the Bombs dropped.

Angry gets shit done.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269189: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:07:22 AM

And it being true is debatable. Especially in light of the Kyūjō incident during which a military coup was attempted to prevent the Emperor from surrendering to the Allies, not even a week after Nagasaki was bombed.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#269190: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:08:06 AM

If Nuclear weapons hadn't been used then,they might have used later in the future (Think Vietnam where they seriously considered it),it remains the only time they've ever been used and I'd like it if it stayed that way

Edited by Ultimatum on Jan 29th 2019 at 5:11:22 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#269191: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:10:34 AM

And it being true is debatable. Especially in light of the Kyūjō incident during which a military coup was attempted to prevent the Emperor from surrendering to the Allies, not even a week after Nagasaki was bombed.

By this logic 'America' wants a big concrete wall (or maybe steel slats) on the Mexican border.

Angry gets shit done.
SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#269192: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:12:07 AM

@Robretch: So? It is still the same thing. America didn't want to intervene and thus, they drag their feet.

RE: Japan's atomic bombing: They should have surrendered faster. Their wish to surrender while still keeping their pride and dignity is just wanting their cake and eating it too foolishness.

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#269193: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:15:07 AM

[up]So we should've unleashed unspeakable horrors upon them instead?

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#269194: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:16:05 AM

[up][up] ...That's rather callous. 'They should have surrendered faster' do you think the ones who were surrendering were the targets for those bombs? We wiped two cities off the map in a show of force, and if we were really trying to speed up their surrendering we could have used one and given more time for them to surrender. By the second, we were just flexing our muscle at the Soviets.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 29th 2019 at 12:16:27 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#269195: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:16:37 AM

Hey Americans...

You ever wonder why the world's not a big fan? Maybe it's this attitude, yeah?

Like whatever fucking malfunction leads you to victim-blame the human beings who got nuked for decisions made by a leadership that, it being a militarist dictatorship, they had no goddamn influence on.

Edited by Robrecht on Jan 29th 2019 at 6:20:16 PM

Angry gets shit done.
SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#269196: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:17:14 AM

I am pretty sure there is a thread buried here about Hiroshima, Downfall and the like. Please take the Japan bombing discussion to that thread, or make a new one.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#269197: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:18:42 AM

NVM

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 29th 2019 at 12:18:55 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#269198: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:19:48 AM

[up][up][up] I'm not American, though. I'm Indonesian.

Edited by SteamKnight on Jan 30th 2019 at 12:20:01 AM

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#269199: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:19:49 AM

Oh hey, are we back to doing interventionist circlejerking? Oh, and we're bringing up World War 2 as a blanket pass for modern American imperialism because hey, if we don't do it someone else might run around murdering people and taking their shit?

Must be a day that ends in -y.

At the end of the day, Great Powers have no friends, only interests, and the US is never going to be an exception. Their interventions, whether or not you consider them virtuous or otherwise, ultimately they're in the interest of US capitalism, and the fact that concerns about the modern US military maybe veering into Roman-style frontier policing ultimately are answered with 'yeah, but World War 2' speaks to the fact that people haven't picked up on this yet. It really isn't rocket science, guys.

Edited by math792d on Jan 29th 2019 at 6:23:32 PM

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269200: Jan 29th 2019 at 9:19:59 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]Way to demonize all of us. Even the posters who are American who disagree with the bombings being justified.

[up]Nah, WWII was only brought up because we somehow got around to the atomic bombings topic.

Edited by M84 on Jan 30th 2019 at 1:21:17 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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