TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269101: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:50:19 PM

The most consistent arguments for isolationism are usually the right-wing (that is, libertarian and Objectivist) arguments - that is, "fuck you, got mine." Which isn't an unreasonable position for someone to take and one I'm quite sympathetic to, it's just one that most of us don't agree with.note Being sympathetic does not mean I agree now, but I used to agree with it and, unsurprisingly, I understand why people take that position. So please tone it down with the hate for isolationists.

Oh yeah, I can get why some want isolationism, I don't agree with it, but I can get it.

[up] Yeah, a small band of armed people can control entire towns, a entire small army in a impoverished region? Full out warlords controlling the nation.

(Note: I don't mean that my definition define the situation, I'm just supporting the view that armed people really have power)

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 28th 2019 at 12:51:31 PM

Watch me destroying my country
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#269102: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:08:34 PM

Oddly, I'm more with Alley and less with the rest of the thread on this.

We should be using our soft power to help people, its true. However, the general feel of the thread seems to have swung too far in the other direction, like with "America must remain the world's policeman". Uh...no.

The issue being that for us being the world's policeman affords us both with a sense of accountability and a moral superiority we don't always have. For every defense of Kuwait or Kosovo or Afghanistan we have, we get a Haiti or a Chile or an Iraq 2 or a Vietnam. And even if (the latter two) were started with good intentions, well, the path to hell and all.

On the accountability, well, we're rather screwed as the two nations set to replace us are somehow worse in this regard. Russia will back any dictatorial regime so long as it has a grudge with the USA, and China engages in the same sort of stuff too. So, unless India pulls itself together or the EU manages to centralize a foreign policy, we're the best option we've got. But that doesn't mean we should be acting as said police, even if we must for a time.

So, while we need to be involved, like with the Kurds in Syria, we should focus more on helping other people with aid and support. So things like the drone strikes in Yemen need to stop. And we need to stop sending troops to foreign conflicts without even telling the public (see Niger).

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269103: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:19:22 PM

[up]You might not like that the USA is the world's policeman, but the reality is someone is going to do it. Nature abhors a vacuum.

And when the only other realistic contenders are the Kremlin and the CCP...

Edited by M84 on Jan 29th 2019 at 2:20:36 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#269104: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:30:01 PM

At this point saying that the US shouldn’t be the “world policeman” is simply unrealistic. For better or for worse we (and our allies) have filled that role, and denying that fact is how we end up with those failed interventions mentioned above.

They should have sent a poet.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#269105: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:35:55 PM

[up][up] You want to know how fucked up China is? Technically speaking, they don't have a military. At all. The military is under the control of the Party, NOT the government or its ministries. They have a firewall, where they could, in theory, block the entire country from the outside if they wanted too. And have surveillance technology that make the NSA look like a small scandal.

And the Kremlin is functionally a one-party, mafia-petrostate, with a nuclear arsenal. The oligarchs tried to control Putin, that failed spectacularly, and he's functionally a crime boss disguised as a Head of State, they're destabilizing their regions, and sowing chaos all over the world.

These are NOT good governments/people. They're downright cartoon villains in some cases. You don't want them running the show. EVER

New Survey coming this weekend!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269106: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:38:30 PM

China's PLA is a hot mess of garbage, that's for damn sure. Its manpower doesn't actually count for much since pretty much none of the officers or troops have any actual experience doing anything but suppressing their own population.

As for Putin? Yeah, he's pretty much a Russian Wilson Fisk as Head of State.

Edited by M84 on Jan 29th 2019 at 2:39:46 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#269107: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:40:51 PM

They can't even deploy the vast majority of their standing army, the logistics base for it simply doesn't exist. Largely because it's real purpose is to keep the population churning and in check rather than take any sort of military action.

Of the two the Russians are by far and away the bigger threat.

Oh really when?
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269108: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:42:04 PM

One other thing they've got in common is that they both have a very obvious contempt for democracy in general even though both pay lip service to it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#269109: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:42:37 PM

Not to mention the Chinese Government is overly complicated for zero functional reasoning. Try reading the Wikipedia article on the CCP, the Chinese Government, and their relationships with he State Council, Premiers, and Politburo without getting a headache or saying "Wait, what?!"

New Survey coming this weekend!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269110: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:43:12 PM

Yep, we Chinese people love our bureaucracy. The more byzantine the better.

Edited by M84 on Jan 29th 2019 at 2:43:34 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jasaiga Since: Jan, 2015
#269111: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:46:22 PM

Isn't most of China autonomous anyhow, from Beijing?

Kind of how the states are here?

golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#269112: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:55:24 PM

The problem is that there is no way in hell that Trump or any other Republican or even any other centrist/moderate Democrat would willingly help out the Kurds. The current largest political movement in that demographic is anarcho-communist (Democratic Federation of Northern Syria), and yeah that shit wouldn't fly over in the sheltered capitalist environment of the US. If a politician was to openly support DFNS and/or similar Kurdish groups, it's guaranteed that this would be used as a talking point against them in debates and by pundits, considering people still think communism is some big authoritarian force to fear or that the "don't shout fire in a crowded theater" bullshit holds any weight.

Oh, and also I do agree that isolationism isn't inherently immoral, but the context to this policy is incredibly key here. For example, take Tulsi Gabbard, who believes we should stop intervening with India and Syria, stemming from her incredibly blatant Islamophobia.

Edited by golgothasArisen on Jan 28th 2019 at 12:57:23 PM

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#269113: Jan 28th 2019 at 10:59:49 PM

If you want a really good video on the anarcho-communist movement in Syria, there's this interview with one of its icons:

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269114: Jan 28th 2019 at 11:06:26 PM

You're not gonna convince us with a channel that's openly ideologically biased.

Watch me destroying my country
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#269115: Jan 28th 2019 at 11:07:55 PM

[up][up][up] We, uh, we already do anyway. This Bloomberg article was the first one I could find, but it highlights that. There was an entire couple of minutes in the news cycle dedicated to us pulling out and the potential ramifications.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 28th 2019 at 2:08:45 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#269116: Jan 28th 2019 at 11:13:19 PM

[up][up] That doesn't immediately defeat the entire point of it. Regardless of how far left their ideology is, groups like the DFNS need support, and while there are some news outlets coming out in support of them, politicians have largely been quiet on this. Do you want to actually discuss the plight of the Kurds or are you just going to try to pick apart every source as biased? Cause, let's be fair here, you're not going to see many people that aren't far left interviewing anarcho-communist rebels.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269117: Jan 28th 2019 at 11:25:52 PM

[up]If you want to be taken seriously here, it's generally a good idea to avoid really biased sources.

Disgusted, but not surprised
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#269118: Jan 28th 2019 at 11:30:23 PM

The point I was making by linking the video was to, like, give a general basis of what's going on. Whether the video is far left or far right doesn't matter, cause that's not why I decided to link it. And besides, instead of criticizing sources as biased, it might be helpful to actually respond to the other 90% of what I was saying.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269119: Jan 28th 2019 at 11:36:59 PM

[up]But you didn't really say anything. You just linked that video and expected us to take your word for it that it's really informative and useful. Without mentioning that it's really biased.

Disgusted, but not surprised
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#269120: Jan 28th 2019 at 11:40:02 PM

Are you forgetting that there's a post right before that that goes into more detail about the genocide that this country supports in part because of Islamophobia and in part because of the conservatives' and liberals' crusade against anti-capitalist ideology?

whats your response to any of that

Edited by golgothasArisen on Jan 28th 2019 at 1:40:26 PM

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269121: Jan 28th 2019 at 11:47:08 PM

[up]Considering we were supporting the Kurds prior to Trump becoming POTUS, I'd say it's horseshit that the Democratic Party wouldn't be willing to back them.

You're also basically painting the Democratic Party as being just as Islamophobic as the GOP. And that's also fucked up.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#269122: Jan 29th 2019 at 1:20:14 AM

America made a promise to be the world's policeman.

Then reneged.

This was after doing a shitty job.

The problem is now the mafia is trying to move in with King Putin and Winnie the Pooh in China.

The reason we should be intervening more is, first, nuclear security (as in, we need to bring Pakistan and North Korea to heel yesterday, though Trump may have bungled his way to some accidental success in Korea), and second, because we should care about the people who live in fear of the people with guns.

I sincerely want the Nobel Peace Prize to be given to both the President of South Korea and Dennis Rodman.

Both dealt with evil man children and got them talking.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 29th 2019 at 1:23:52 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#269123: Jan 29th 2019 at 2:30:55 AM

[up] A shitty job by the standards of who? As mentioned above this is the safest and most prosperous era in recorded human history, by all accounts the US-led world order has been doing decently.

Obviously there’s room for improvement, but that goes without saying. It’s a bit of Saturday-morning quarterbacking though.

Also, let’s never give Dennis Rodman a Nobel Prize. A celebrity kissing a fame-hungry dictator’s ass is no accomplishment.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 29th 2019 at 2:32:02 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#269124: Jan 29th 2019 at 2:34:45 AM

Holy shit I’ve turned you lot into full on interventionists, it’s only taken me 8 years.

To throw my hat is as the guy has studied interventionism, the reason you can’t jsut leave Afghanistan to collapse is 9/11, when you let open corner of the world become a lawless hellhole ruled by full on fundamentalist nutjobs with the resources of a national government you get 9/11, it’s why the US went into Afghanistan and it’s why the French went into Mali.

Sure the mess is “over there” but the world is highly connected now, folks “over there” can see how things are “over here” and can get pretty angry about it, they can, have and will decide to try and do something about it and that thing often involves murdering a whole lot of people over here.

There’s no escaping the problem, is we let the Taliban take control of Afghanistan tomorrow than a year or two from now Al-Qaeda will be back safe in Afghanistan again planning another 9/11.

That’s just touching on the raw practicality, on the principle I as a socialist believe in interventionism because my socialist principles don’t stop at the border, nor at they subservient to pacifistic principles.

Oh and to note, the US never deliberately supported the Taliban (well what would become them) against the Soviets.

The long and short is that the US didn’t want to arm groups directly, so it gave weapons to Pakistani intelegence to hand to good people, Pakistani intelegence gave the weapons to the Taliban, the US freaked out (knowing what the Taliban are like) and cut the program. Instead directly (with the British) arming groups that continue to support the US to this day (and both tried to warn the US about 9/11 and had their leader assassinated by AQ as a thank you to the Taliban).

Edited by Silasw on Jan 29th 2019 at 10:36:34 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#269125: Jan 29th 2019 at 2:39:01 AM

Something that's occurred to me: While people claim that Trump caved completely to Pelosi and got absolutely nothing from the agreement to temporarily reopen the government, that's not entirely true; he did get the ability to deliver the SotU on the congress floor. Given what we've seen of his behavior so far, this may have been the main motivating factor in his decision, and I question whether another shutdown can be avoided without a similar looming humiliation


Total posts: 417,856
Top