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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ludlow Since: Apr, 2013
#269076: Jan 28th 2019 at 7:57:56 PM

[up] And what about what the United States owes its own citizens?! My generation is set to the first in decades to have a lower standard of living than our parents' generation. A great deal of that is the result of having to pay for a bloated defense budget. It'd be one thing if we were using it to defend against Russia, China, but no, it gets squandered on pointless foreign wars like the invasion of Afghanistan.

Do you think the Afghans were begging for the US to invade their country, slaughter their young men, and destroy their infrastructure? And do honestly think that the United States invaded the country out of a selfless desire to end the suffering of the Afghan people? We supported the Taliban when they were fighting the Soviets and we left them be throughout the 1990s when the Taliban was doing all of those atrocities your complaining about. The only reason we invaded was because the Taliban refused to give up Bin Laden (and because our corrupt government wanted to inject some money into the Military-Industrial Complex).

Real change will happen when and if the afghan people decide to do away with religious fundamentalism on their own. Forcing them to adopt our ways of governing is no better than what the European Colonial powers did to Africa in late 1800s.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#269077: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:01:56 PM

So who are the government forces and friendly militias then if not the Afghan people fighting against the Taliban?

Like do you just have no fucking understanding of geopolitics and Afghanistan in general or?

Like do you think the entire civilian population there is all just sitting there wishing that us Americans would go away so they can go back to bombing schools and killing women in peace?

Jesus Christ man.

Edited by LeGarcon on Jan 28th 2019 at 11:06:11 AM

Oh really when?
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#269078: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:07:43 PM

@Ludlow: For the record, Afghans actually were begging us to invade them. The US military occupation is far less oppressive and destructive than the Taliban. This is why I'm a card-carrying imperialist: A society's right to self-determination comes from how that society grants individual rights.

Yes, America has a military-industrial complex. It needs one. And yes, it did support the Taliban against the Soviets. The Soviets needed to be stopped, and in any event America's support of them is why we have an ethical obligation to destroy them.

Moreover, dictators don't just sit around-they eventually will go for us if we let them grow and maintain power.

[up]Indeed, the thing to keep in mind is that the common Afghan citizen does not outright hate the United States military per se. They tend to be intimidated by a heavy military presence, worried about collateral damage, and annoyed by tanks tearing up their roads and boots trampling their fields-but they usually don't view America as evil.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Jan 28th 2019 at 8:10:57 AM

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#269079: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:11:15 PM

The Taliban didn't exist during the Soviet-Afghanistan War. It was formed from the children of the Mujaheddin educated by radical clerics supposed to be taking care of them.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 28th 2019 at 8:20:12 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#269080: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:22:08 PM

My generation is set to the first in decades to have a lower standard of living than our parents' generation. A great deal of that is the result of having to pay for a bloated defense budget.
No. No, no, no. The largest reason why we're having lower standard of living is Reagan's tax cuts on the 1%, to the point that 0.1% of the country now owns more than 80% of it.

Don't like US military interventions? Ok, I can understand that. But your wildly insecure financial future is not their problem. It's the billionaires.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269081: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:22:12 PM

will point out that I did use "if", I didn't really expect it to be good for Afghanistan but I was uncomfortable with the immediate and sole focus on how it would possibly benefit Trump.

THIS. Thinking in terms of "How this affects Trump???" is irresponsable.

Honestly, my feeling is that if the US backed Afghan government cannot stand on its own after all these years, then it totally deserves to be overrun by the Taliban.

...What?

Why do we need to build other nations? The most successful nations build themselves organically based on the shared culture and history of the people living there. Hell, the Taliban seemed to be doing a fine job of nation building before we blew them to smithereens. It was horrible, misogynist theocracy, but if the people of Afghanistan wanted that, its their business.

What? The Taliban isn't "just" mysogines and religious fundamentalists, they are in the upper levels of lunacy. I'm sure their victims are glad to be left alone to be killed. Obvious Godwin's Law, but this like saying that we should let the Jews being killed because "The Germans wanted it" (and before you say how the Allies didn't went to save the jews—ironically, is more accurate say that it was to help the Soviets to save themselves— I know it, is just a example).

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 28th 2019 at 11:22:49 AM

Watch me destroying my country
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#269082: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:32:58 PM

My desire for a peace treaty is to secure the safety of the territory not under their control.

Trump is immaterial to negotiations as he wouldn't be doing them.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#269083: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:33:14 PM

@Kazuya: For what it's worth the Nazi parallels are worth noting in this context, because part of why US military-interventionism exists is specifically to avoid repeating the mistakes that allowed Hitler to become as powerful as he did (namely, appeasement and isolationism).

Leviticus 19:34
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#269084: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:33:15 PM

[up][up][up][up] Reagan came up in my Law & Poverty class today and I nearly had a rage stroke. From gutting public education funding to backing “trickle down economics” to a million other things, he goddamn wrecked the nation with a plastic smile and sky high approval ratings.

Every time someone cites him as a “compassionate” conservative or an angel compared to Trump my blood boils.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 28th 2019 at 11:33:44 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#269085: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:37:25 PM

[up]What did they say in the class?

Also, I wouldn't take "an angel compared to Trump" as inherently saying that Regan wasn't awful. Though, some people probably do mean it like that. But, well, a tsunami that "only" kills 500 people is comparatively better than one that kills 5,000.

TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#269086: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:38:15 PM

Okay, rant time. Feel free to whale on me, but at this point I'm beyond enraged.

When will people learn that Isolationism has never ever fucking worked as a viable policy?

As for why should America build up other nations - I don't hear anyone goddamned complaining about the Marshall Plan. Or Reconstruction in Japan post-WWII. Or the billions of dollars spent in improving infrastructure worldwide, all of which has had a positive impact not just for America but literally everyone else.

And as many posters here have said, it's a globalised world. Like it or not, what happens across the globe is going to affect everyone. The days of localised events are long gone. You don't like it, tough shit - deal with it, learn to live with it or accept it. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for lower living standards - that's squarely on that motherless bastard named Reagan. You want to blame someone, start there. While you're at it, shove a red hot poker up Milton Friedman's ass as well - he's the one who's led everyone down the garden path to ruin. Fuck both of them.

America must remain the World's Policeman - for it's own interests, if nothing else. The day that stops, you may as well start learning Russian or Chinese.

And if you want a better future, chuck every neoliberal "economist" and politician out on their asses and put some actual economists to work fixing the problem. Like neo-Keynesians or Behavioural Economists. Until then, feel free to keep seeing your future get fucked over by the ultra-Rich.

Edited by TechPriest90 on Jan 28th 2019 at 11:44:52 AM

I hold the secrets of the machine.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#269087: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:49:21 PM

[up][up] Basically that Reagan policies made it harder on poor people and then Newt Gingrich and Clinton made it even worse with that goddamn awful “Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act” that ended the 1935-1996 version of welfare and replaced it with a highly restrictive, time limited, work focused version of welfare that resulted in worse outcomes and kicked over 50% of people off welfare.

[up] Yeah, screw Milton Friedman and his complete refusal to acknowledge systemic issues. And screw Charles goddamn Murray too; I didn’t know the man famous for the racist Bell Curve book was also a major anti-welfare “intellectual.”

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#269088: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:51:09 PM

I didn’t know the man famous for the racist Bell Curve book was also a major anti-welfare “intellectual.”

Although, that hardly comes as a surprise.

i'm tired, my friend
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#269089: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:52:35 PM

I would just like to point out that I agreed with Le Garcon and Tobias Drake in one day.

My plan must be working.

Leviticus 19:34
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269090: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:53:18 PM

insert typical Kazuya's tired question about if the right wing exist to be a force of evil (please no answer, is just that is always my reaction to this class of talks. Is weird when you live in a country where the most reactionary segments of the Left use Neo Liberal as a slur to refer to anyone with a working brain)


America must remain the World's Policeman - for it's own interests, if nothing else. The day that stops, you may as well start learning Russian or Chinese.

The "Anti" Imperialist Gang (AKA Is Imperialism just if Gringos is doing it) is searching you, be careful.

For what it's worth the Nazi parallels are worth noting in this context, because part of why US military-interventionism exists is specifically to avoid repeating the mistakes that allowed Hitler to become as powerful as he did (namely, appeasement and isolationism).

In hindsight, the reason why I'm never able to fully belong with the Left is because my utter loathing to their attitude of EVIL AMERICA. Interventionism is kind of needed sometimes, you can't let a country kill itself or its neightboors.

Opossition to inteventionism can get hilariously hypocrital, is the Schrödinger's Imperialist. Intervene to stop a genocidal regime and you are a racist that don't give a fuck about the deaths of non-white. Don't interve and you are a racist that don't give a fuck about the deaths of non-whites.

American's interventionism errors can be divided in two, one that is unambiguously bad and deserving of hatred like the infamous coup against (Saint) Allende and putting the Junta that led to Pinochet and others where the issue is less the intervention itself and more that they are incompetent in dealing with it.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 28th 2019 at 12:00:17 PM

Watch me destroying my country
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#269091: Jan 28th 2019 at 8:58:53 PM

Honestly, I'm going to go a step further. If you're isolationist. Fucking screw you. There's a right and a wrong way to intervene, and aside from very obvious fuck ups like the 03 Iraq War, Foreign Policy is extremely complex. Like, you can take every single Domestic issue America has, combine their complications into one, and it STILL wouldn't even come close to how delicate foreign policy is. To say it's a Sword of Damocles is the understatement of the century.

Is America flawed? You're goddamn right it is, we have fucking white supremacists in the executive branch. But, for all its faults, and of them there are many, America is unquestionably the Leader of the Free World, and it earned its spot. You know why? Because we did what no one else would've done in our situation were the roles reverse.

We didn't set out to conquer everything after WW 2. What did we do? We did something unprecedented in human history. We WILLINGLY rebuilt Europe from the ground up. Were they for America's interest in countering the Soviets? Well, yeah, no fucking shit, but we didn't have to be as generous as we did. We turned the Japanese from a warmongering stratocracy, into a functioning state, while still preserving their culture, instead of annexing their territory.

Every time the world has a problem, who do they look for first? Us.

You know why? We may be bastards, and swing our dicks around too much, but you know what? If you asked Germany, the UK, France, or South Korea whose dick they'd rather see, they're not going to say China or Russia. They'll say the US motherfucking A, 10/10 times.

This is currently the most peaceful time in human history. That's an objective fact. And it's mainly because of decisions we made 70+ years ago.

And if you want to undo all of that hardwork, sacrifice, and blood over some deluded leftist view that America is "evil" (from a FP policy standpoint, mind you), kindly fuck off, please.

New Survey coming this weekend!
TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#269092: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:03:47 PM

[up] Hear Hear. [tup][awesome]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - for all of it's flaws, America is a bright point of light and justice in a world seemingly tottering into the abyss. Maybe I'm just an idealist, but I fervently believe in the American Ideal - despite not being American myself.

People worldwide admire the United States - and that admiration comes because people know that ultimately America is a force for good, occasional fuckups aside (nobody's perfect, after all).

I hold the secrets of the machine.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269093: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:07:23 PM

Every time the world has a problem, who do they look for first? Us.

But that is because you westerners are brainwashed for the corrupt media, no, I'm not talking like a Trumpeter, I'm right

And with this, I mean that I agree. There a reason why I have no issues with Trump having allied with us in Latin America against Maduro, we needed USA, and even if Trump's USA, is still better than allowing Venezuela to starve itself to death.

America is a bright point of light and justice in a world seemingly tottering into the abyss. Maybe I'm just an idealist, but I fervently believe in the American Ideal - despite not being American myself.

I wouldn't go that far, but better is better, and America—overall—isn't that bad compared to other stuff that we have seen.

starts unironically listening America Fuck Yeah!!

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 28th 2019 at 12:10:07 PM

Watch me destroying my country
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#269094: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:17:34 PM

I stepped away for a second and the thread moved a bunch but I’m just going to echo the general “fuck isolationism” viewpoint.

I’ll also add that America’s problems at home and the intervention in Afghanistan are two different things. Saying it’s either “we stay there or we fix things at home” is a false dichotomy, not only are we perfectly capable of doing both but the solutions to both issues are radically different and have essentially nothing to do with each other. That talking point is a particularly facile one.

The world order we have now is far from perfect, but it would be a hell of a lot worse with Russia or China in the top spot, and you can guarantee one of them will grab said spot the moment the US chooses isolationism. US isolationism is shitty politics borne from misguided 80s leftism.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 28th 2019 at 9:20:05 AM

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269095: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:22:26 PM

[up] Is lamost the equivalent of saying "You have anger issues and are a alcoholic, ergo you have no right to go to fight the Serial Killer trying to kill his neightboors".

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 28th 2019 at 12:22:51 PM

Watch me destroying my country
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#269096: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:22:50 PM

Regardless of what one thinks of US foreign policy, one has to acknowledge that it's better than having the Kremlin or the CCP calling the shots.

You don't want the Kremlin and the CCP calling the shots.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#269097: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:22:50 PM

I've said it before, most of the backlash against America is because America fails to live up to its reputation and hype. However, it does have a reputation for a reason. America has a lofty enough vision to fail at it.

Leviticus 19:34
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#269098: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:35:39 PM

Like could you even imagine if something like the Gulf War happened today? It'd be a disaster. Not because we couldn't win or do what we did in 91, but because Bush's idiotic invasion, has pretty much turned nearly every American off from intervention, and Europe isn't going to get involved, not only because they want our blessing, but even if they did, during the Arab Spring, their logistics were flat out terrible and they couldn't do it.

That's the real danger, here. If a situation pops up, where we NEED to intervene and the President can't because it would pretty much sink his/her domestic policy and approvals, literally, overnight....welp.

New Survey coming this weekend!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#269099: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:38:07 PM

I'm against needless US interventionism and pro-foreign nations' self-determination if possible, but if the alternative is allowing grotesque violations of human rights or Chinese/Russian imperialism (and I'm tired of leftists who defend them just to stick it to the US or because they used to identify as leftists) then by all means step in. The optimal solution would be transparently providing resources to assist native movements over demolishing things and installing puppet governments, but sometimes the situation is so unstable that more direct intervention is required.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 28th 2019 at 1:23:01 PM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#269100: Jan 28th 2019 at 9:43:35 PM

The most consistent arguments for isolationism are usually the right-wing (that is, libertarian and Objectivist) arguments - that is, "fuck you, got mine." Which isn't an unreasonable position for someone to take and one I'm quite sympathetic to, it's just one that most of us don't agree with.note  So please tone it down with the hate for isolationists.

The reason we should be intervening more is, first, nuclear security (as in, we need to bring Pakistan and North Korea to heel yesterday, though Trump may have bungled his way to some accidental success in Korea), and second, because we should care about the people who live in fear of the people with guns. We as Americans have taken on the calling of keeping a certain degree of global security and human rights and preventing genocide, and while we've been doing a rather piss-poor job of late (driven by Cold War alliances that no longer have any place in our planning - seriously, we should not be supporting Israel with billions in funding), and we should welcome and encourage more support from NATO, ANZUS, Japan and other alliances (Europe, get off your collective arse please...), that doesn't mean that the job doesn't need doing.

Ludlow, let's let Vladimir Lenin refute your entire argument:

One man with a gun can control 100 without.

A small fraction of Afghanistan's population are either psychotic fundamentalists, drug lords, or a combination of the two. They have Kalashnikovs and a degree of ability to organize the people holding them. They can suppress the resistance of the rest of the country. And if they can't, then it's only because the military's own drug lords don't like competition.

Edited by Ramidel on Jan 28th 2019 at 8:44:07 AM


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