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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#269001: Jan 28th 2019 at 12:52:14 PM

I mean shit I don't want "peace" over there.

We have to stay and see this through, not leave them at the mercy of the Taliban.

Oh really when?
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#269002: Jan 28th 2019 at 12:52:14 PM

Heck, Trump's most ardent supporters want him to kill Muslims, not make peace with them. There's a very slight risk that a peace deal will make him look "presidential" and get the mainstream media praising him in order to keep their beloved veneer of neutrality, but when set against all the other crazy things he does, I don't see how it'll help more than a tiny bit.

Quite, the most I could see it benefiting him would be a slight boost of his ratings before he happily rolls into our next crisis.

No way it will last until the election.

I mean shit I don't want "peace" over there.

We have to stay and see this through, not leave them at the mercy of the Taliban.

Agreed.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 28th 2019 at 3:52:44 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#269003: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:03:16 PM

I want the Afghan war to be over. It's a complete waste of our resources, and the idea that we're fighting for democracy and self-determination seems to be a fool's errand. We clearly aren't willing to spend the amount of money and lives that we'd need to truly make a difference, so at this point it's just a holding pattern. Better to rip the band-aid off if we aren't going to make a real commitment.

EDIT: Secondary Question, what's the significance of the upside-down US Flags I keep seeing everywhere these days? I genuinely don't understand it.

It is a violation of protocol to fly the U.S. flag upside down. Therefore, using an upside-down flag as an avatar is a form of protest against the current administration — or, more specifically, against the election itself, which was blatantly undemocratic.

[down] That's part of the problem: it has not noticeably diminished their political or cultural influence.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 28th 2019 at 4:04:09 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#269004: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:03:28 PM

Serious question: has Usonian intervention in Afghanistan done anything concrete to deminish the Taliban's influence in the area?

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#269005: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:06:31 PM

It did. Only problem is you have to keep at it.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#269006: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:06:48 PM

I think it is a difference because, well, large portions of the country aren't under the Taliban's control.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#269007: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:09:12 PM

So what I'm getting is that whioe the US intervention was beneficial, no one is willing to go the whole nine yards and end the problem for real.

I know, I'm hopelessly ignorant, but I'm here to learn.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#269008: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:09:31 PM

An upside-down flag was originally a distress signal. It was a call for help. Doing it now is a way of showing patriotism and support for your country (like flying it right-side up is) while simultaneously saying that you think the country is in distress and don't support the current direction it's going.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#269009: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:12:02 PM

So what I'm getting is that whioe the US intervention was beneficial, no one is willing to go the whole nine yards and end the problem for real.

I know, I'm hopelessly ignorant, but I'm here to learn.

That's pretty much exactly it, the US is unwilling to properly invest the resources necessary to build a functioning society to oppose the Taliban.

It doesn't help that when Afghanistan was first started resources that should've gone to it were diverted to Iraq, the damage the Bush administration have done to interventionism is shameful.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#269010: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:18:37 PM

The problem is that the US has been treating its operations in Afghanistan as one and done. The assumption was that we could just go in there, kill all the “bad guys”, and leave a functioning country behind this time next year.

Obviously, holding onto an assumption like that going on almost 18 years now is a little ridiculous. The strategy on the ground has begun to turn towards the long-term partnership we need to actually be successful there, but the rhetoric from upper leadership continuously stymies that.

To “win” in Afghanistan we need to accept that we’re going to be there for a long time, and we need to start treating it as a partnership with a strategic ally rather than a one-off combat deployment.

They should have sent a poet.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#269011: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:18:42 PM

This flag film like in that one Tommy Lee Jones movie? In the Valley of Elah, yes?

Edited by Oruka on Jan 28th 2019 at 1:19:59 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269012: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:24:18 PM

[up][up] Yeah, Intervensionism isn't a "Go, kick the enemy and move on", is a long process that needs a lot of effort and time in order to ensure that you don't leave the place worse.

Watch me destroying my country
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#269013: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:27:17 PM

It’s almost like killing people and destroying infrastructure just... makes more enemies...

The Marshall Plan should be the template for immediately after any sort of intervention. Legit help rebuild and make things better, locals will think you’re okay-ish. Versus half assing it and causing a ton of collateral damage that creates more terrorists.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#269014: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:27:21 PM

Feels like the Marshall Plan all over again, just with less competent people.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#269015: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:29:45 PM

[up] The Marshall Plan was nothing like this. It was a long term plan to help rebuild the decimated European infrastructure and economies, support the new postwar governments, and most importantly, was actually effective.

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 28th 2019 at 4:34:20 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#269016: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:34:13 PM

The countries that the Marshall Plan helped out had a shared cultural paradigm with the U.S., democratic institutions to varying degrees, and were politically unified in opposing Germany. What they lacked was capital to rebuild their devastated infrastructures. The Afghanistan situation is vastly different in all respects.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269017: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:35:17 PM

It needs not only a economic change, but also a social change, right?

Watch me destroying my country
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#269018: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:38:06 PM

Correct. For one thing, it never had stable institutions. For another, it has a long history of Islamic warfare, and the typical citizen still holds as much allegiance to a tribe as to a nation. There just isn't a paradigm of democratic governance: we have to build it from scratch.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 28th 2019 at 4:38:26 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#269019: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:38:39 PM

Yeah, I don’t think the Marshall Plan is the right model here. Frankly I don’t think anyone knows what the model here is, since almost no thought has been put into figuring out how this damn thing is actually going to work. For starters, though, we should try actually listening to Afghan partners about what they need. A national identity needs to be built from scratch there, and we’ve seen that strengthening parts of the Afghan government and military can help.

Leaving the Middle East as a mess of chaotic and failed states would be a major strategic defeat for the US and for the West as a whole. Having functional, stable governments in the region benefits everyone.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 28th 2019 at 1:39:31 AM

They should have sent a poet.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#269020: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:42:56 PM

Post WWII Japan is a closer fit, except, unfortunately, without an emperor.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#269021: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:44:04 PM

[up][up] That part of the world has never really been particularly stable to begin with, which makes creating a stable government even harder.

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 28th 2019 at 4:44:58 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#269022: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:44:41 PM

"U.S. unseals indictments against China's Huawei and CFO Wanzhou" - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-huawei-tech-charges/u-s-unseals-indictments-against-chinas-huawei-and-cfo-wanzhou-idUSKCN1PM2H5

Could this be related to those sealed indictments Mueller has going or are these something else?

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#269023: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:44:59 PM

[up][up][up]And it isn't even a fully funtional one, given the many issues of Japanese society that could have being avoided if USA did something else (like punish more war criminals).

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 28th 2019 at 4:45:20 AM

Watch me destroying my country
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#269024: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:46:30 PM

But didn't Japan had a stable goverment before WWII? From what I gather, the biggest diference in Afghan is that the region was never stable in the first place, and the political infrastructure would need to be built from scratch.

[up]Right, didn't the US covered up the Unit 731 experiments, among other things?

Edited by HailMuffins on Jan 28th 2019 at 6:47:50 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#269025: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:46:44 PM

[up][up][up] I highly doubt that those indictments have anything to do with Mueller's team. The focus is on corporate espionage, not election interference.

[up] Japan has a long history of corruption at the highest ranks of government, with corporations buying politicians and running the show, but that doesn't translate into tribal warlords conducting mass-murder campaigns. Mass murder is bad for business, after all. The situations are radically different.

Japan also has a lot of cultural and racial insularity, a long-running national inferiority complex, and other issues, but it is a highly organized and structured society with an intense work ethic.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 28th 2019 at 4:49:07 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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