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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268876: Jan 27th 2019 at 4:37:19 PM

Germany has a good reason for its so called "obsession" with inflation. A stable currency encourages long-term investments. That is why the Euro was born in the first place, to stabilize the currencies in the poorer EU countries, which would allow them to lend money to better conditions but, above all, would encourage more long-term investments in the region. And, btw, this part of the Euro mostly worked.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#268877: Jan 27th 2019 at 4:44:29 PM

[up]Brazil has a similar problem, except we never been able to keep inflation stable for more than half a decade or so.

Which is what tends to happen when an entire country's economy is built around foreign investment.

Edited by HailMuffins on Jan 27th 2019 at 9:45:27 AM

DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#268878: Jan 27th 2019 at 4:47:59 PM

[up]

Brazil does have a rather nice set of inward capital controls active last I checked,makes your FDI inflows a bit more stable than the EU with their mandate of free movement of capital. Still a bit patchy and needed a few revisions, but it mostly worked.

Still not exactly the best growth model in the world, but it seems to still function. Investment in the Eurozone goes up as a % of GDP from when it was introduced until the crisis and has been in a prolonged slump since.

Edited by DeathorCake on Jan 27th 2019 at 12:52:07 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#268879: Jan 27th 2019 at 4:49:42 PM

[up][up][up] The U.S. and Japan both have high debt to GDP ratios and extremely stable currencies with lots of investment. The theory on which Germany's inflation obsession is based is just plain wrong.

The Eurozone currency area is a noble experiment in economic union, but it is fundamentally flawed because it is missing one of the required elements for that to work: a central currency issuer with the power to conduct fiscal transfers and stimulus (without unanimous vote of all members). Unless that is fixed, it will always be vulnerable to asymmetric demand shocks: when one member of the union becomes dramatically poorer without the others suffering the same problems.

This is basic macroeconomics. The ordoliberals in Germany just plain ignore it. They're lucky because Germany's own economy is the backbone of the Eurozone, and leeches off of the other member countries by holding its domestic inflation so low that other countries have to deflate to keep up. Its obsession over keeping inflation down is fundamentally damaging the very union that it worked to build.

I realize that ignoring reality is an element of national pride in Germany (as it is among conservative economic voices in the U.S.), but you can only do that for so long before it hits you in the face.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 27th 2019 at 7:56:12 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268880: Jan 27th 2019 at 4:56:06 PM

[up] Japan and the US are special cases. The US due to the petrodollar, Japan due to the fact that the debt is completely hold by Japanese in a construct which is unique for the whole world.

Also, the Euro was France's projects, not Germany's. We are aware of the problems with the Euro. Which is EXACTLY why we insist on those rules. Because if we didn't do this, the poorer countries would go on a spending spree, which would lead to the richer countries saying "hey, why should we act responsible with our money when other countries just go to spend it and push us into debt" which then would lead to the whole of the EU breaking up. And also destroy the stable economy we have built.

We can losen the restrictions once countries are ready to give up some of their sovereignty regarding their finances.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 27th 2019 at 5:00:58 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#268881: Jan 27th 2019 at 4:57:17 PM

Incorrect again, but if that's what you're being taught, I can excuse you for not realizing it. Anyway, this isn't the appropriate topic for this discussion, so move it to the General Economics thread if you want to continue.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#268882: Jan 27th 2019 at 5:01:34 PM

Is it possible for the President to rage quit the Presidency?Because that's exactly what I'm picturing when he doesn't get his wall

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268883: Jan 27th 2019 at 5:02:24 PM

[up][up] I would rather not. Because this is just the usual clash between the debt-driven short-sighted economy of the anglosphere vs the more long-term thinking the middle European countries follow - not just Germany. If only Germany would think that way, we would be outvoted in a minute.

We will eventually see who is right.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 27th 2019 at 5:02:57 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#268884: Jan 27th 2019 at 5:18:23 PM

Fairly obvious why you don't want to debate it when you immediately dismiss the other side as short-sighted.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268885: Jan 27th 2019 at 5:20:47 PM

[up] The reason why I don't want to debate it is because we already had the debate here. Multiple times. And I don't think another round of repeating the same points will lead anywhere. Once here is now information to be had to debate, I might jump into it, but as it is, we are at a stalemate.

Also, I describe American economy as short sighted. That isn't the same as calling someone who buys into the notion of grown through debt short-sighted.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 27th 2019 at 5:22:09 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#268886: Jan 27th 2019 at 5:30:05 PM

When you call an entire economic approach short-sighted, you implicitly call the people who think about it short-sighted.

And it's not a debate I remember seeing. tongue

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#268887: Jan 27th 2019 at 6:07:27 PM

Just to point out, but Germany's fear of inflation is likely related to its past experience with the Weimar Republic - and even worse, what happened because of that notable failure.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#268888: Jan 27th 2019 at 6:10:28 PM

[up]

They're missing a few bits then. Hyperinflation finished by 1924, then nearly a decade passes then suddenly Nazis? In between is the Great Depression and massive austerity by Chancellor Bruning in 1930-32, and the more they cut the more the unemployment rate rises and the Nazi vote goes up.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#268889: Jan 27th 2019 at 6:11:07 PM

The debate over the Euro’s centrally ordered austerity to Greece (and others) is one we’ve been having since the Euro crisis started, largly it’s been the same people debating the same points for years now.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#268890: Jan 27th 2019 at 6:24:36 PM

Oh my God. I just realized what Trump's new Slogan is:

BUILD A WALL & CRIME WILL FALL! This is the new theme, for two years until the Wall is finished (under construction now), of the Republican Party. Use it and pray!
I was going to make a joke about how theymust have been inspired by Dr. Seuss books, but that's an insult to Doctor Seuss.

Also take a look at these two tweets from an hour ago:

Never thought I’d say this but I think @johnrobertsFox and @Gillian H Turner @Fox New have even less understanding of the Wall negotiations than the folks at FAKE NEWS CNN & NBC! Look to final results! Don’t know how my poll numbers are so good, especially up 19% with Hispanics?

After all that I have done for the Military, our great Veterans, Judges (99), Justices (2), Tax & Regulation Cuts, the Economy, Energy, Trade & MUCH MORE, does anybody really think I won’t build the WALL? Done more in first two years than any President! MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 27th 2019 at 9:29:17 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268891: Jan 27th 2019 at 6:39:40 PM

[up][up][up] In reality the austerity worked and the economy was on the upswing - also because the depression slowly ended. Hitler did zilch for the German economy, even the autobahn is a myth, the project was started BEFORE he came into power and he added next to nothing to it. We could have gotten the Wirtschaftswunder in the 1930s, if not for the lack of patience and blaming the wrong people.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#268892: Jan 27th 2019 at 6:47:26 PM

It's an interesting definition of "worked" that driving up unemployment in the meantime somehow isn't just a different form of bad thing.

The economy benefiting in the long run because the people are suffering isn't good.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#268893: Jan 27th 2019 at 6:50:02 PM

Food rationing in Nazi Germany began two years before the start of WW 2.

You have to seriously fuck up a country to have food rationing begin in peacetime.

Oh really when?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268894: Jan 27th 2019 at 7:04:08 PM

[up][up] You confuse the cause with the correction. It was the hyperinflation and the economic crisis which cause the high unemployement. It was a careful restructuring of the finances of Germany which allowed Germany to get a food back on the ground. Germany was on an upwards trend before Hitler jumped into the fray.

[up] You also need a serious fucked up country to have it creating food storage in peacetime. And yet that is exactly what the UK is currently doing.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 27th 2019 at 7:05:08 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#268895: Jan 27th 2019 at 7:23:21 PM

Makes me wish I had a garden to grow potatoes. Not just because it's semi-practical, bust also nostalgia. My father used to grow them when I was young.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#268896: Jan 27th 2019 at 7:27:34 PM

[up][up]

Wasn't also Germany heavily dependent on USA's capital? I remember a video that mentioned how the great depression, along with the lack of a solid Reichstag, was what allowed Hitler to get to power when Hindenburg kicked it.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#268897: Jan 27th 2019 at 7:41:38 PM

Treasury Dept. Lifts Sanctions on Russian Oligarch’s Companies – Democrats had tried to block the move, which they criticized as a capitulation to the Kremlin and one of its key allies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/27/us/politics/trump-russia-sanctions-deripaska.html


Trump Thought Firing Flynn Would End ‘Russia Thing,’ Chris Christie Writes in Book – The former New Jersey governor’s memoir paints President Trump as highly effective as a candidate — but someone who since has been ill-served by many advisers, including some members of his family.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/27/us/politics/chris-christie-book-trump.html


Pence, Ivanka, Kushner no-show as Mattis gets standing ovation at elite DC dinner

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/27/politics/john-kerry-alfalfa-club/index.html

Washington (CNN) — Former Defense Secretary James Mattis received a standing ovation Saturday at the annual black-tie Alfalfa Club dinner after delivering a speech in which he honored the troops and talked about the importance of the US' standing abroad, according to a source with knowledge of the event.

For the third year running, President Donald Trump skipped the annual event — but this year, so did the vice president as well as Trump's daughter Ivanka Trump and her husband Jared Kushner.

Vice President Mike Pence and his wife Karen as well as White House advisers Ivanka Trump and Kushner were all on the seating chart for the head table but didn't show at the event, attended by a who's who of prominent political and business leaders, according to the source.

Pence's office told CNN in a statement, "Vice President Pence declined the invitation weeks ago and was not scheduled to attend."

CNN has reached out to the White House for comment.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 27th 2019 at 8:42:53 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268898: Jan 27th 2019 at 7:46:53 PM

[up][up] Eh, Germany was a conquered country in a sense. The US was less the problem, France was.

Anyway, it is too easy to "blame" Germany's desire for a strong currency on the period of hyperinflation. Yes, it had a long lasting cultural impact, but there are practical and economic reasons why Germany can't afford having a weak currency. It actually could handle it better back then, because then the coal was still worth something.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#268899: Jan 27th 2019 at 7:58:04 PM

Anyway, it is too easy to "blame" Germany's desire for a strong currency on the period of hyperinflation. Yes, it had a long lasting cultural impact, but there are practical and economic reasons why Germany can't afford having a weak currency. It actually could handle it better back then, because then the coal was still worth something.

That's all great until you have a currency union with partners that can't support a strong currency.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#268900: Jan 27th 2019 at 7:58:55 PM

So, about 20k people visited Kamala's first rally this afternoon.

I mean, I know crowds don't always translates to votes (see: 2016) But PHEW. And her speech was damn good. Really impressed.

New Survey coming this weekend!

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