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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#268626: Jan 25th 2019 at 9:06:49 AM

The public doesn't need to know everything. Things like covert troop deployments, undercover agents, and so on are kept secret for a reason (remember the Valerie Plame thing?).

Regardless of one's feelings on the actual state in question, a state apparatus keeping confidential information is not in itself a mark of evil.

It's been fun.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#268627: Jan 25th 2019 at 9:07:28 AM

> which prompted the Kremlin to make them its bitch

they've always been the Kremlin's lapdog,digging up dirt on Russia might have made them yank the chain slightly though

[up] OK,those are perfectly reasonable for keeping things confidential

Edited by Ultimatum on Jan 25th 2019 at 5:08:59 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268628: Jan 25th 2019 at 9:51:44 AM

No, on the other hand, massive amount of information that is kept confidential only exists to promote the interests of states at the expense of their people and democracy.

The public of both the USA and, say, nations its worked against the democratic governments of have a right to know about said activities.

Which was released along with large amounts of information about collaboration with dictatorships.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 25th 2019 at 9:54:17 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#268629: Jan 25th 2019 at 9:54:55 AM

Trump would have to be impeached to be charged with anything. Not necessarily removed from office type impeachment but still. There’s no way the senate will let that happen.

Also stone is out on bail.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#268630: Jan 25th 2019 at 9:55:16 AM

I think the point being made is that WikiLeaks, at least, was not acting in the common good with what they released, whatever they said at the time. An assertion considered borne out by what they released and regarding who vs what they haven't.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 25th 2019 at 10:56:02 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#268631: Jan 25th 2019 at 10:02:21 AM

The only time Wikileaks shows discretion when they release shit is when Russia or Russian allies/assets are involved.

IIRC, they doxxed most of the women in Turkey at one point, because freedom(TM).

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#268632: Jan 25th 2019 at 10:36:30 AM

Double post for a potential big update: Congress and Trump might be coming close to reopening the government for 3 weeks with a clean resolution, and trying to use that time to come to a long term agreement.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/government-shutdown-month-2019/h_6f63d81a7b725e97106b0c0b7a225a4e

Also, anyone else see that Stone literally did the Nixon salute as he was released on bail. I knew that he was a huge Tricky Dicky fanboy but jeez...

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#268633: Jan 25th 2019 at 10:41:35 AM

He has tattoo of Nixon. He is and always has been - and has always wanted to be - an utter scumbag.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#268634: Jan 25th 2019 at 10:45:41 AM

The public doesn't need to know everything. Things like covert troop deployments, undercover agents, and so on are kept secret for a reason (remember the Valerie Plame thing?).

Regardless of one's feelings on the actual state in question, a state apparatus keeping confidential information is not in itself a mark of evil.

Exactly.

State secrets are only a threat if the state is run by people you don't trust to be keeping the right secrets. And in a democratic state, if you have a problem with who's deciding what to keep secret, then maybe you should try voting for someone else.

The American public is already the highest authority in the nation. They just need to learn to exercise that authority during our regular 2/4/6-year Public Official Performance Reviews.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 25th 2019 at 11:47:13 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#268635: Jan 25th 2019 at 10:50:07 AM

[up] And if both the major candidates support such a thing?

Like, this isn't a defense of Wikileaks (Fuck them), but a lot of the survailence and such that I don't trust happened under Obama. J. Edgar Hoover got away with the awful things he did under both Democrats and Republicans.

Not to mention that a lot of the positions keeping the secrets aren't up for election.

"Why don't you just vote differently" only works when there's an option that won't keep things that should be known private.

[down] Edit: [tup][tup]

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 25th 2019 at 1:52:51 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#268636: Jan 25th 2019 at 10:52:21 AM

State secrets are only a threat if the state is run by people you don't trust to be keeping the right secrets. And in a democratic state, if you have a problem with who's deciding what to keep secret, then maybe you should try voting for someone else.

We only know about COINTELPRO because a bunch of activists raided an FBI office for documents. COINTELPRO was active under republican and democratic administrations. It doesn’t matter who you vote for, lack of transparency is a big problem, and so is the white supremacy and classism which is baked into American politics.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#268637: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:05:47 AM

Notification from Reuters: "Congressional leaders, Trump agree to advance three-week stop-gap spending bill to end government shutdown."

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#268638: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:07:16 AM

[up]I'll believe it when the bill gets voted on and signed. Not a moment before.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#268640: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:11:31 AM

Trump is weak, the fact that signs are pointing to him folding again doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

It's what he does, I'm sure he'll later claim he actually wanted it.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#268641: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:12:07 AM

Besides, do we really expect that they'll find a solution in three weeks when a month did not?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#268642: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:14:10 AM

There will be one less factor in that the shutdown isn't actively happening. Though whether that will be good or bad I'm not sure, since either way that means the pressure is off

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#268643: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:14:47 AM

Besides, do we really expect that they'll find a solution in three weeks when a month did not?

Yes, I do.

If Trump folds on this then he'll be likely to fold again.

It's not some great problem that needs a special solution, Trump simply has been keeping the government closed and Mc Connel has been covering for him. If Trump folds as he is known to do then the problem will go away.

Is it guaranteed? Certainly not, but the pressure's mounting and will not go away just because there's temporary government funding.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 25th 2019 at 2:15:15 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#268644: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:18:37 AM

Looks like Trump is announcing the deal now. TVs in the cafeteria are muted so don't know what's actually getting said.

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#268645: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:21:23 AM

It's a month-long shutdown, but at least one senator has his priorities straight. /s

Indignation hits the Senate floor: The Saints got robbed

    Article 
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-La.) is upset.

The government is in the longest shutdown in U.S. history. Federal employees are going without pay. Vital services are at risk.

And the Saints were robbed of the NFC Championship.

"I hope it doesn't seem out of place with the shutdown," Cassidy said Friday on the Senate floor. "But I can tell you, to the folks back home, it is something which continues to disturb them."

Cassidy called for the Senate to question the NFL over a highly controversial call by a referee during the NFC Championship in New Orleans on Sunday. The New Orleans Saints faced off the Los Angeles Rams, ending with what Cassidy dubbed one of the most "blatant and consequential blown calls in NFL history."

Rams cornerback Nickell Robey-Coleman made contact with — some would say hit — Saints wide receiver Tommylee Lewis in the fourth quarter with less than two minutes to spare. But the referee refused to call pass interference, to the ire of fans across the nation.

"Every drunk sitting on a stool in every bar throughout the nation looked up at that TV and said there's interference," Cassidy said, indignation gripping his voice.

The non-call has garnered more than guffaws. Two lawsuits have been filed over the move, including one by a New Orleans resident who sued the NFL on Tuesday alleging the NFL promoted "a culture of selective enforcement of its own rules based on profit," The New Orleans Advocate reported.

Cassidy argued the NFL represents a standard for competition in the United States, and such a call harms the integrity of the game itself. Cassidy proposed questioning the league on how it selects and grades officials and if the league looked into any conflicts of interest with the referee behind the non-call.

The Rams will be heading to the Super Bowl to play the New England Patriots on Feb. 3 — which Cassidy saw as an utter shame.

"It really is a taint upon the Super Bowl," the senator said. "It won't be the two best teams. It will be the two teams that got there, at least in one case because someone did not see an obvious call."

Not being a football guy, I'm not really invested in a bad call, but when you have to preface your argument with "I hope it doesn't seem out of place with the shutdown," well that really speaks for itself.

MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#268646: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:21:37 AM

I'll agree with everyone else: I'll believe it when I see it.

Still a good sign though. At least Agent Orange is realizing he's rapidly losing leverage.

[up] Wow. Great priorities, dude

Edited by MrHellboy on Jan 25th 2019 at 1:22:16 PM

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#268647: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:24:34 AM

part of a Thread on legal implications on the arrest of Rodger Stone.

Instead, let's briefly talk about the offenses themselves, which center around the House Intel Committee's investigation. Stone's public statement to Congress when he testified was full of evasive language.

Five counts are for false statements made by Stone to the House Intel Committee. (Lying to Congress is a federal crime.) Those statements are all narrow and can be proven false through documents/emails, such as whether Stone asked Credico to communicate to Julian Assange.

Mueller chose narrow lies that can be proven false using documents because he has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Stone knew he was lying and purposely lied to House Intel. He will do that by showing that the lies were about basic things Stone had to know were false.

The other two charges are for obstructing the House Intel Committee's investigation and for witness tampering due to Stone's threats against Randy Credico. Credico is the radio host who brought a comfort dog to the grand jury to testify. The indictment alleges that Stone threatened to "take that dog away from you" and told Credico to "prepare to die." The indictment also alleges that Stone told Credico to "be honest" that there was "no back channel" and told Credico to refuse to talk to the FBI, as he did. Although Stone could point to the language urging Credico to be "honest," taken together the emails show that Stone was trying to bully Credico to lie. Given that Credico testified before the grand jury, you can expect that his testimony was consistent with this indictment.

I would expect Credico to be an important witness against Stone, and if he testifies that he was afraid of Stone, that would be extremely important testimony if Stone was ever sentenced. A judge would take duress suffered by Credico very seriously.

This indictment would not have been possible without the House Intel investigation, which forced Stone and others to testify in a setting where false statements would be federal crimes. Stone should have taken the Fifth but thought he could get away with testifying.

It is not unusual for federal prosecutors to wait in the background as subjects of their investigation testify in other proceedings. When I was a federal prosecutor, I often waited for subjects to testify before the SEC or in civil lawsuits before bringing charges. Sometimes that testimony can make it easier to bring wide-ranging charges by locking that person into a story that precludes them from making certain defenses. And on other occasions, like here, false testimony can result in its own separate charges

27/ The Stone indictment shows the importance of Congressional investigations that can compel individuals to testify unless they take the Fifth, which many public figures do not want to do. Now that the Democrats took the House, we will see more testimony that could help Mueller.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#268648: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:26:05 AM

Relatedly there's an interesting article on how the White House is viewing the shutdown, Trump White House grows eager to escape losing shutdown fight

So yeah, they're buckling.

Part of the reason they're losing hope is that they expected to be able to peel away Democratic support and the fact that has resoundingly failed has been quite demoralizing, which apparently surprised Jared Kushner the most because he's a fucking idiot.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 25th 2019 at 2:26:34 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#268649: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:26:50 AM

This deal sounds like a punt to me; the wall-or-not question isn't actually settled, it'll just be postponed for three weeks.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#268650: Jan 25th 2019 at 11:27:24 AM

... Maybe I'm mishearing this because I only just tuned in, but did he literally just say "No one ever said we need a wall across the border" seconds after going on about how we need a wall "or whatever you want to call it"?

I know I shouldn't be surprised to hear noncoherent rambling out of his mouth, but for fuck's sake.

Edited by TheAirman on Jan 25th 2019 at 1:28:01 PM

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They

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