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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#268501: Jan 24th 2019 at 4:49:05 PM

Conservatives hating her because she's outspoken doesn't make her divisive. They hate all liberals.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#268502: Jan 24th 2019 at 4:50:50 PM

While we're on the topic, liberals dividing the country for being too outspoken about their values is a right-wing talking point.

Not saying, just saying.

i'm tired, my friend
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#268503: Jan 24th 2019 at 4:53:18 PM

In the current US, where white supremacy and economic inequality are viciously ruining millions of lives, being “divisive” because one acknowledges these cruelties and wants to fix them is better than promoting “unity” by whitewashing reality and fiddling while Rome burns.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 24th 2019 at 7:53:53 AM

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#268504: Jan 24th 2019 at 5:26:36 PM

[up]I'm ashamed to say, I used to buy into that crap. The bad old days were gone, we still had work to do, but things were better and they were going to get better, so don't make such a fuss or we won't go anywhere. The past three administrations have cured me of that bullshit.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#268505: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:01:35 PM

Those of you defending Ocasio-Cortez need to open your eyes; while many of the conservative attacks on her are made in bad faith, they're right to be worried about her because AOC is essentially the left wing Trump that establishment Republicans and centrists were warning Democrats about. Beyond being a populist with the typical people vs elite (ie experts) dichotomy in her rhetoric, she's incredibly uninformed, plays fast and loose with the truth, and lacks any real qualifications for her position. (A law degree would be a nice start)


As enticing as it can be, populism isn't something to be worn as a badge of honor, it's probably the single biggest threat facing liberal societies. From right wing populists like Trump to left wing populists like Chavez, the real world outcome of populists coming to power is never good. I'm ashamed to have once been a supporter of one such politician myself (Bernie Sanders), believing the same things you're telling yourself about how "our side" is different from theirs, and our "populists" are really speaking for "the people". In the process I was waving away the lack of tangible plans composed by subject matter experts as details that could be worked out later on, and being rather intellectually dishonest. That was a serious mistake, and though I'm not optimistic about the prospects, I can only hope the democrats do not fall into the same trap as the GOP, for the sake of the country and the larger global community.


The real eye opener for me has been the process of becoming an expert myself in the course of my doctoral studies. I've gained a greater appreciation of just how much there is to know in any field of study (multiple lifetimes worth), and thus how little I actually know about nearly all of the topics that are relevant to modern politics beyond of a narrow slice of bioethics, healthcare, and regulatory issues where my background has some non-superficial applicability. I really don't feel all that comfortable having political opinions outside of that area, because I've realized I'll never even have the very beginnings of the requisite knowledge to come to an informed decision about those positions, and I suppose that's why I'm considerably less active in this thread than I once was.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 24th 2019 at 9:03:30 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#268506: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:13:50 PM

Okay, Capsase, please, just don't.

I don't 'need to open my eyes' to anything. I'm capable of making my own decisions. And her policies, from using a New Deal style works project to an additional high tax bracket, aren't new. They're recycled policy from times past.

And more than that, she's actually willing to speak up for marginalized communities, for instance the Trans community, even when a law hadn't just been past attacking us. That's not something the Clintons and Harris's and Sanders of the world do.

Idealism still has a place in the world. Not everything need be a cynical political maneuver. So unless you can propose an alternative to her right now that has the same outreach and stands up for what we can be, then no thanks. I'll stick with her.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#268507: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:23:45 PM

Yeah, AOC hasn't tried to, say, overthrow Pelosi like some established (white, male) Democrats did recently. Instead, AOC said that while there are things she disagrees with, she's not out to disrupt Pelosi's leadership. And no offense to AOC, but a lot of her presence is due to the right wing turning her into a hate figure, and AOC in turn is using her new platform to draw attention to things the Democrats as a whole are working on, or issues that the Democrat members are worried about. I don't think she's ready for, say, the presidency, but neither does she. AOC also works with her colleagues, such as offering twitter classes, which is important considering that one of Trump's strengths is communicating through Twitter.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#268508: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:26:22 PM

And more than that, she's actually willing to speak up for marginalized communities, for instance the Trans community, even when a law hadn't just been past attacking us. That's not something the Clintons and Harris's and Sanders of the world do.

Rhetoric is cheap. Substantive change is difficult, and requires coordination with various sectors of society that populists decry as elites. One must also consider opportunity cost; it's nice to have a politician prepared to explicitly advocate for civil rights for the more marginal elements of the LGBTQ sectors of the population, but her economic positions are, as you said, from a previous century, and would be untenable without significantly higher barriers to trade to shield workers from overseas competition.

[up] Yes, because she's shrewd enough to realize that won't actually work; Sanders didn't run a third party campaign to spite Clinton even though I imagine he'd have liked to, because it would have been political suicide to do so. Feeding off of the free attention from opposed news media is another point of comparison to Trump.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 24th 2019 at 9:30:39 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#268509: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:28:35 PM

[up][up][up]I don't really like Cap's condescension either, but I do think there's something to be said for putting so much hope/trust in one person, so quickly.

I notice that tends to happen a lot - the new shining star of progressives or something, and while the people in question might actually be good, making such a dichotomy of "I'll stick with her" as opposed to everyone else seems unnecessary.

That being said, yeah, Cap, you still come off as pretty condescending.

Edited by LSBK on Jan 24th 2019 at 8:29:08 AM

CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#268510: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:29:14 PM

Why the fuck is the Doomsday Clock on the news? BBC was talking about it, and how it is on 2 minutes to midnight due to a "looming threat of nuclear war" (oh boy, they believe the bullshit the doomsayers have being saying here?) and Climate Change.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#268511: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:32:40 PM

The Doomsday Clock is danger and disease wrapped in darkness and silence. Or in other words it's bullshit.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#268512: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:32:40 PM

Rhetoric is cheap. Substantive change is difficult, and requires coordination with various sectors of society that populists decry as elites. One must also consider opportunity cost; it's nice to have a politician prepared to explicitly advocate for civil rights for the more marginal elements of the LGBTQ sectors of the population, but her economic positions are, as you said, from a previous century, and would be untenable without significantly higher barriers to trade to shield workers from overseas competition.

I see absolutely no reason to believe that any of this is true.

You have provided absolutely no evidence of AOC actually decrying those "various sector of society" as elites and the position that her economic policy is impossible without tariffs is similarly unfounded.

From this and your previous post, I see nothing but vast condescension and a relentless populist strawman that doesn't reference any of her actual propositions or values. You seem more fond of attacking the style of populism instead of the actual substance, which I must say is deeply ironic.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#268513: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:35:36 PM

[up] If you'd bothered to read my source, you'd understand why I'm making these claims; she's lied through her teeth repeatedly and/or been unable to answer/incorrect about some fairly basic questions.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 24th 2019 at 9:56:39 AM

Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#268514: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:36:05 PM

The World Is Always Doomed

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#268515: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:36:38 PM

Rhetoric is cheap.

Funny, if its so cheap why don't I see more mainstream and especially Centrist Democrats do so? Oh right, a lot of them don't seem to care unless its to score a few points.

Having said that, I do watch to see if she does actually follow through.

>LSBK

Yeah, I know, I shouldn't put too much hope on one person. That's on me.

>Capsase again: Please stop with the condescension. Its kinda really rude.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 24th 2019 at 9:37:33 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268516: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:37:49 PM

While I agree with LSBK on thinking that maybe people are being too quick to put their faith in Ocasio-Cortez — I generally think it's a bad idea to get too emotionally invested in public figures — I gotta say that Cap's "sources" on Ocasio-Cortez supposedly being unqualified aren't the best.

Op-eds aren't really all that useful for this sort of thing. That one from The Week seemed particularly iffy.

Edited by M84 on Jan 24th 2019 at 10:38:24 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#268517: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:40:12 PM

The democrat version of Trump isn’t AOC, it’s Gabbard, someone who runs an anti-establishment message, has credibility with the fringe of the party despite being centerist in many of their policy beliefs (Trump has little person issue with big government spending or restricting gun rights, Gabbard is one of the most conservative Democratic house members and has serious issues with LGBT people) and has a weird admiration for foreign autocrats.

Also Cap I’d take your argument more seriously if you hadn’t previously argued against democracy and for government by unelected exerts and AI. Your opposition just comes across as you once again opposing common people (AKA not you) having political power.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 24th 2019 at 2:41:53 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#268518: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:40:39 PM

[up] I'd argue Gabbard is the centrist version of Trump; her actual policy positions are decidedly moderate, and her alliance with left wing populists is out of a shared anti-establishment bent.

[up][up] None of what it says is factually untrue; you don't like its tone of course because it's pro-Sanders (which is hilarious since Sanders is one of her backers from the older generation of MOCs), but she really isn't all that great about facts or specifics in the same way Sanders isn't, and more to the point she's ultimately a populist.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 24th 2019 at 9:56:30 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#268519: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:40:58 PM

I'll say I also didn't think very much of Cap's sources. I'll reserve final judgment on AOC for when she's had a few years under her belt. For now, it seems like she's doing some good stuff, might be rocky in some places, and could get better or worse.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#268520: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:42:59 PM

Trump holds some weirdly centerist positions (for a Republican) once you get outside of racial issues, that’s where the comparison comes from.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#268521: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:44:55 PM

Capsase, your sources are op-eds by respectively, a former George W. Bush speechwriter and...a Catholic dude who hates abortion, going by his twitter feed (can’t get a great read on where he falls on the spectrum).

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Jan 24th 2019 at 9:50:53 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268522: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:45:25 PM

[up][up][up][up]I don't trust it in part because it takes the side of Mike Huckabee of all people, the "interlocutor" mentioned in that op-ed.

I actually read The Hill article he links, and it doesn't mention this supposed mistake AOC made (and the link for that was another op-ed in the Washington Examiner of all sources).

[up]I looked up some of that guy's other op-eds in The Week. Hooboy. What a hot mess of garbage.

Cap, this is not the first time you've done this, linking to unreliable sources and/or sources that outright argue against the point you're trying to make. Do you just assume we don't bother to read these things?

Edited by M84 on Jan 24th 2019 at 10:47:24 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#268523: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:46:26 PM

[up][up] I also found the sources to be based on opinion, not fact. And the comparisons to Trump were based on poor analogies and false equivalencies.

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#268524: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:47:33 PM

[up][up][up]Trump holds a lot of mainstream Republican beliefs regarding race and class and the economy and the environment, he's just a no-class loudmouth who's benefited from decades of publicity, free and otherwise. If we had President Cruz or President Pence, they wouldn't shut down the country over a worthless wall but they would still pack the courts and attack immigrants.

Edited by JBC31187 on Jan 24th 2019 at 6:48:08 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#268525: Jan 24th 2019 at 6:50:59 PM

President Pence wouldn’t suggest taking people’s guns and doing due process later, President Pence wouldn’t try and bring up infrastructure week every couple of months, President Pence would never even pretend to care about LGBT people (Trump obviously doesn’t actully care about them, he doesn’t care about anyone but himself and the female version of himself).

Trump has ocasionly flirted with more moderate ideas, right until the party has reeled him back in.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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