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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268276: Jan 22nd 2019 at 5:58:21 PM

Because I don't think the situation has benefited from having them combined. The entire Department of Homeland Security is a joke that has made things less efficient and more problematic on every level.

But ICE itself does not make things better and shouldn't exist period not just because of their rampant criminal behavior but it's combination hasn't benefited its departments.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268277: Jan 22nd 2019 at 6:01:02 PM

[up] That’s just flat-out false.

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#268278: Jan 22nd 2019 at 6:11:17 PM

I think my point here is that people aren’t really advocating for abolishing ICE, they’re just advocating for rebranding it. Saying it’s going to be abolished or destroyed just comes off as an overtly grandiose and silly (or worse, a politically self serving) way to talk about a name change. Federal agencies rebrand all the time, they’re not “destroyed” when they do.

Yeah, and people hate Obamacare while loving the ACA.

Voters are morons and sometimes you need to do symbolic things that aren't strictly necessary.

Silly or not if 'abolishing' ICE results in it being reformed with a new name then I don't really see any reason to oppose it.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268279: Jan 22nd 2019 at 6:14:06 PM

People have been talking a big game about ICE being necessary and more efficient than the alternative.

But I question the data on that and believe, in fact, it has been a problem rather than a problem solver.

And yes, I call for its dismantling and destruction. Not its rebranding, it's destruction. Because it's not made America safer, it's made it worse and there's many many better agencies or re-organizations which could be done it is place—almost all of which would be objectively better.

Don't rename it, destroy it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#268280: Jan 22nd 2019 at 6:39:07 PM

Just disband the immigration enforcement portion and blackball the careers of the leadership and middle management. Rename the rump organization something different, and there you go, problem solved.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268281: Jan 22nd 2019 at 6:42:59 PM

[up][up][up] If it needs to be pitched as destruction to sell it to voters so be it, but I’m the context of the conversation here we’re really just talking about a rebranding.

[up][up] You’re coming from the right place but this is so short sighted it’s kind of unbelievable.

Aside from the obvious issues with cross-border crime, which would be massively exacerbated by that, returning to a pre-9/11 style setup would be screwing immigrants. Splitting up INS was massively helpful to the immigration process. Your proposal would do more harm than anything else to the very people you’re trying to help.

I’ll also point out that the whole “give it to another agency” thing doesn’t really make any sense. Other agencies don’t want customs and border stuff. Just like we have different agencies for foreign and domestic surveillance, for financial crime, for all kinds of different things, border crime is its own mission that merits its own agency. It’s not like we’re going to hand it off to the FBI or the CIA, which would be insane, or leave it to local police departments. There’s going to be a federal agency supervising this, and having it all under one agency, rather than two or five, is the easiest way for things to get done.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 6:59:20 AM

They should have sent a poet.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#268282: Jan 22nd 2019 at 6:57:59 PM

At least part of the issue is that with it now being one organization, literally all the blame can go to ICE instead of the bad press being diffused among differing organizations.

All that aside, I'm questioning how you, Charles, think that splitting things up into multiple organizations is somehow more efficient. I don't think you're suggesting we split it up into five different groups doing the same thing like others suggest, but you're not exactly helping that misconception since you're not explaining how you would prefer things to be split up. Like others said, ICE does quite a lot besides handling illegal immigrants, and if we split that up into different orgs like before, then that's a lot of information that ends up not being shared and thus a lot of criminals that end up getting out of jail. This is in no way ideal, and in many ways could lead to immigrants getting hurt even more than they are now. (So I say because I don't think there's really a ground floor to the harm that can be done.)

There's also the fact that having one agency handle the border stuff is a lot more efficient money wise, which was, no doubt, a large part of the motivation for consolidating things.

Edited by AceofSpades on Jan 22nd 2019 at 8:59:35 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268283: Jan 22nd 2019 at 7:01:05 PM

Because the people after criminals will be people after criminals, not the people after immigrants. The problem with the current organization is that it has numerous things under its purview which changes its mandate. Immigrant related crime should be under crime, not immigration. The very fact that it is results in a focus on that element of the border versus an immigration board separate from a criminal board.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#268284: Jan 22nd 2019 at 7:04:46 PM

Except that crime that crosses the border had a lot of hurdles to deal with that crime taking place entirely within the US doesn't have. Having an organization of people trained to deal with that specifically is actually a good idea. And, as others have said, to fix the problem you're fixating on just requires eliminating the whole "deporting immigrants" arm of the organization. Which changes that mandate.

Also I note that it doesn't really seem like you answered the question I asked.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268285: Jan 22nd 2019 at 7:13:38 PM

[up][up] Eliminating ERO would fix the problem you’re talking about entirely.

It seems like you’re extrapolating your issues with the immigration enforcement to unrelated parts of the agency.

I’ll also point out that ICE only deals with crime even right now, they just have an overly broad definition of what “crime” is. The actual process of immigration is handled by USCIS.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 7:16:49 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268286: Jan 22nd 2019 at 9:54:39 PM

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/22/687516967/the-border-wall-isnt-the-only-reason-democrats-oppose-plan-to-end-the-shutdown

Trump's proposal really is extreme in how its meant to shut down people from claiming asylum in the USA.

The only thing worse than an immigrant to Der Cheeto seems to be someone who is actually poor, desperate, and huddled.

(FYI - the Statue of Liberty was given to America to celebrate kicking the shit out of the Confederates)

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268287: Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:19:44 PM

[up] You still haven’t clarified your proposal for reorganizing ICE.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268288: Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:22:23 PM

I'm not sure how much more clear I can be than it needs to be destroyed. Not tomorrow.

Today.

Now.

It is impossible to reform, fix, or repair. Everyday it continues, the United States gets worse.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:23:07 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#268289: Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:43:25 PM

My question relates to how you expect its current responsibilities to be handled in the event what you want to have happen does in fact happen. But your lack of answer seems to reveal that you don't know what, exactly, is the entirety of what it does, or how transferring some of its responsibilities to other organizations doesn't actually solve the problem. Regular police are generally only meant to handle local crime. AND you still haven't even explained how you think breaking it down into separate groups again is somehow more efficient, which was one of your main claims at the start. So yes, you COULD be much clearer. Because we're asking you for details beyond "destroy, DESTROOOOY!!!!" because hey, that's not really much of a suggestion or discussion at all.

(And none of this really addresses how we need to prevent those fired members from subsequently seeking employment at places those responsibilities are then transferred to. It's not just dismantling all or part of an organization, it's making sure the remnants can't go on to cause other organizations to rot.)

Edited by AceofSpades on Jan 22nd 2019 at 12:44:03 PM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#268290: Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:45:00 PM

[up][up][up]He has. He says he wants it just gone.

[up][up]Now I'm saying: Not acceptable. Fire ERO en masse, awesome. Rename and rebrand, awesome. Aggressively apply the DOJ against nu-ICE agents who step one toe out of line, awesome. Remove the organization, no dice.

Edited by Ramidel on Jan 22nd 2019 at 9:45:25 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268291: Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:53:09 PM

Yeah, just saying “get rid of it” isn’t really clear. There are so many potential issues with that proposal that it may as well be a non-starter.

And I think my bigger question is why? Fire any officers who have participated in deportations or deportation operations, yes. But that’s only around a third of the agency. The other two thirds should probably be audited for misbehavior anyways, but they’ve been doing their jobs without issue.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:55:07 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268292: Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:55:13 PM

I understand what ICE does and I've been discussing my larger issues with the department it belongs to. My general view is that I think that the United States immigration and border policy under the Bush administration needs to be remade from the ground up.

I have ideas but I think the current issues of it haven't shown it to be functioning better.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268293: Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:04:52 PM

[up] I mean, it doesn’t seem like you’re aware of ICE’s other missions at all. Human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, international gangs, IP theft, child pornography, customs fraud, these are all things ICE deals with. It’s not solely an immigration agency, the majority of what it deals with is cross-border crime of various varieties.

I’m not sure what you’re proposing doing with the parts of ICE that deal with crime and not immigrants. I’m also not sure where you’re getting that those parts aren’t functioning.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:06:16 AM

They should have sent a poet.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#268294: Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:12:24 PM

I'd actually point out that ICE seems to be working just fine. The ERO is snapping up immigrants left and right. It's that the mission given them is absolute shit from an absolute president, and the job that they're currently doing is attracting shit to apply for it.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268295: Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:13:40 PM

I in fact mentioned human trafficking and child pornography.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268296: Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:17:01 PM

[up][up] The other parts of ICE absolutely despise ERO. There have been some fairly high-level officials within ICE saying ERO actually hurts the other operations the agency is involved in. I think that’s the best argument for a name change as well, ICE has too much stigma attached to it.

[up] You haven’t mentioned it in this current discussion. And as Ace pointed out, dealing with those crimes in the context of cross-border investigations requires special resources and special training, so how does it make sense to split all that stuff up among other agencies, especially ones that might not be able to support the mission? It certainly wouldn’t make it more efficient, if anything the exact opposite.

Besides, we already know how it goes when these things are split up among many agencies. That’s how it was pre-9/11, and it wasn’t great.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:40:32 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268297: Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:49:03 PM

Yes, people keep mentioning that they think it's much more efficient now. I've stated repeatedly I don't believe that to be the case. I think it's less efficient now and the resources with dedicated agencies devoted to crime in those cases would be better than ICE.

To explain, again, making the Department of Child Pornography and Human Trafficking of say, the FBI, I think would be a better place for ICE's money than ICE.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:49:12 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#268298: Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:55:59 PM

As an outsider I’d certainly find it helpful if someone would list what ICE does, so far I’m getting.

  • Deportations and coordination with other law enforcement for the flagging of illegal immigrants within the United States.
  • Cross border crime in the form of weapons smuggling, drug smuggling, child trafficking, money laundering and child porn.
  • Import/export enforcement.
  • Benefit fraud.

Can someone tell me if I’m right there?

If so I can see the argument for breaking things up, standard import/export enforcement should be handled by its own agency, benefit fraud should be dealt with by an enforcement arm of whatever federal agencies provide benefits, deportations doesn’t need an investigative arm and could just be a coordination group, physical cross border crime could be handed to a new investigative department of border patrol and non-physical cross border crime (so digital stuff) could be dealt with via an FBI Department.

Though now I know that ICE deal with money laundering I kinda wanna keep it around long enough for ICE agents to arrest Trump for laundering Russian money, just for shits and giggles.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 22nd 2019 at 7:57:10 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#268299: Jan 22nd 2019 at 11:59:17 PM

[up]

Main catch here is that all of those were handled by different agencies until they were folded into ICE. Nobody knew who was responsible for what, as a lot of those things criss-cross jurisdictions.

Edited by TerminusEst on Jan 23rd 2019 at 12:02:51 PM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268300: Jan 23rd 2019 at 12:12:46 AM

[up][up][up] Except you haven’t been able to explain why you feel it’s less efficient, and are happily ignoring piles of evidence pointing to the exact opposite being true. In fact, we know for sure the exact opposite is true, since we’ve already been there. You keep saying “agencies devoted to crime” like ICE is an immigration agency, which it is not.

Also, I can’t help but laugh at believing the FBI is somehow more responsible than any other federal agency.

When the Department of Child Pornography in the FBI has to liaise with a foreign government in an investigation, something the FBI has limited resources to do, how will that work? Will all agencies now have overseas missions in case they have to deal with cross border crime? When the Human Trafficking department needs customs data that they can’t get on time from a now-seperate customs agency, how many people will slip through their fingers?

Your argument isn’t based in reality whatsoever.

[up][up] Basically any kind of transnational crime is investigated by ICE. If it crosses a border it’s their deal, they’re the investigative wing of DHS while CBP is the patrol and enforcement wing. In essence they’re already the investigative part of CBP. Import/export compliance isn’t under them but rather the Department of Commerce, ICE only handles that from the customs side of things. Benefit fraud is a multi-agency thing but ICE typically handles things like fake passports or fraudulent money transfers. The reason they handle this stuff is because they have special resources and dispensation to deal with foriegn governments, making it easier for them to handle crimes that originated in or went to another country.

This stuff all overlaps a lot, and when it was all seperate it was almost impossible to put together functional investigations.

My proposal would be to scrape out all of ERO without replacing it, and then just rebrand ICE into USCE or whatever. We don’t need a dedicated deportation force, we shouldn’t be deporting enough people for that to be a thing.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 23rd 2019 at 12:42:03 PM

They should have sent a poet.

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