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TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#268251: Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:20:22 PM

[up][up] In a sane world, you'd be right. In the world we live in, with hard borders, suspicious governments, populist douchebags and dog-eat-dog geopolitics, it's a pipe-dream. Tragic, but the reality all the same.

EDIT: I really need to figure out how this Pagetopper thing works.

Edited by TechPriest90 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:20:57 AM

I hold the secrets of the machine.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#268252: Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:23:35 PM

And I feel like this kind of task could be better handled by collaborations between criminal investigation departments with the ones that oversee immigration rather than a specialized department that focuses exclusively only on immigrant crimes. That's a breeding ground for discrimination.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#268253: Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:24:27 PM

Mueller has been looking into Trump's ties with the NRA during the campaign.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/22/politics/mueller-nunberg-trump-campaign-nra/index.html

And since the NRA was almost certainly taking cash from Russia....

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#268255: Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:47:53 PM

Keeping tabs on immigrants and expats happens all the time all across the world, you know. This isn't an endorsement of it, by the way. Because it's a special sort of bureaucratic no-mans land to live in.

Living any place knowing you can be expelled almost at any moment is no joke. Take the Swiss residency permit system as a prime example (heck, you can be born there in a family that's two-generations resident on one side and three on the other, but you will still only be, say, a foreign resident with a B-permit if neither of your parents or their parents gained Swiss citizenship by either affording it, getting awarded it for special services or marrying it and you've made a few slip-ups to be dropped from A — note the difference between residency and citizenship).

And, you need to present that permit upon request for an insane number of mundane things (especially if you're a C-permit holder), all of which track you (if the paperwork doesn't get misfiled or mistakenly recorded). Heaven help you if you share an ID number or name too close to somebody else who commits a major crime, especially assault or fraud. You can get deported before you can clear that up, and may not get let back in even if you do manage to.

Rack too many infringements and fines up, and you can be dropped a level in permit or have your residency denied entirely, either on the spot or at the point of renewal (licenses must regularly be renewed: the different levels grant different renewal periods).

Multi-generational resident families have been split up that way (they can get back together in time care of the tortoise of an appeals process — or just give up and move en masse to Italy or wherever, but... still).

You guys are in that august company of tiered residency/citizenship bureaucratic horror, now. Congrats. You did it even without realizing it.

Worse, it's not even properly codified, so practice and enforcement in the wild will differ widely from what minimal guidelines are set down.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Jan 22nd 2019 at 10:00:17 AM

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#268256: Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:48:38 PM

[up]x2 Hey look, Mitch is blinking. Since we all know that Trump's 'Compromise' isn't going to work, the 3 Week CR vote is a great way to end Trump holding the Government Hostage... for 3 Weeks. Odds would be great if the CR over rides Trump's Veto, the average Republican, and Trump specifically, are going to go freakin' bananas.

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:49:51 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#268257: Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:53:48 PM

The continuing resolution is far from sure to pass the Senate, and passing with a veto proof threshold? Not in this month and probably not the next three ones either.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#268258: Jan 22nd 2019 at 2:53:40 PM

Whatever they come up with has to pass the House, too.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#268259: Jan 22nd 2019 at 2:53:53 PM

[up]

It would, at least, put the blame squarely on Trump at that point.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268260: Jan 22nd 2019 at 3:31:42 PM

Again, I'm not sure of the logic of blaming Trump.

It comes from the premise that Trump is being a hypocrite or obstinate here when he's made his statement that he's doing this for the wall and standing by it.

Democrats don't agree because they hate the Wall.

I'm not sure I get the logic of the "it's his fault" because the flaw is that it's an awful idea, not that he's betraying someone or made an illogical argument from his vile perspective.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 22nd 2019 at 3:32:32 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#268261: Jan 22nd 2019 at 3:38:35 PM

"You guys are in that august company of tiered residency/citizenship bureaucratic horror, now. Congrats. You did it even without realizing it."

What is this monstrosity even.

The privilege of birth and wealth and connections, enshrined.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#268262: Jan 22nd 2019 at 3:52:05 PM

[up][up]

It boils down to the fact that the Senate had voted on a spending bill, at which point he then decided to make a hard stand for the wall funding - and possibly because conservative media were blasting him over his failure to procure the funding prior to the new Congress coming in.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#268263: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:07:56 PM

I can be Trump's fault without Trump being a hypocrite. It's his fault because he's holding the country hostage in order to get Congress to agree to fund a terrible project that would never be completed anyway, and because he refuses to back down from that position.

So, like, I'm sure why it not being a betrayal or illogical from his perspective would mean it's not his fault. Although I'd argue that allowing the entire country (and, in particular, the government workers) to suffer in order to satisfy his ego is a betrayal of the country and government he was elected to lead.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268264: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:08:24 PM

Just abolish ICE and make a replacement that re-hires everyone who isn't a part of the ERO.

Functional border security without the tainted name.

I think my point here is that people aren’t really advocating for abolishing ICE, they’re just advocating for rebranding it. Saying it’s going to be abolished or destroyed just comes off as an overtly grandiose and silly (or worse, a politically self serving) way to talk about a name change. Federal agencies rebrand all the time, they’re not “destroyed” when they do.

I was born in 1990, so I’ll bite. What was going on in the 80s and 90s that justifies the creation and continuing existence of ICE after 9/11?

ICE was put together out of two older agencies, INS and USCS. Now, anyone who dealt with INS could probably add more about how nasty they were, but they make modern immigration services like USCIS look like a walk in the park. Aside from being bloated and corrupt and racist, one of the big issues is that they were a law enforcement agency and a citizenship service in one, two things that should not be put together. The information from the side of the organization trying to help people get citizenship would be immediatley passed to the side of the organization trying to stop people from getting citizenship.

The other issue is that back then there was no DHS or DIA to facilitate communication between agencies, and there were so many agencies doing what was essentially the same work that it could become very inefficient very fast. This was especially true with border security, since there were basically two border security agencies doing more or less the same stuff, on top of the fact that basically every other agency tried to handle it too since there was no centralized mission door it. There was a real problem with cross-border crime in the 70s and 80s, stuff like drug smuggling and human trafficking. One agency could pick up someone wanted in a case by another agency and then release them without that other agency ever knowing, destroying their investigation.

DHS and ICE get a deserved bad rap, but it comes from stuff like inefficiency or racism in the case of ICE, not from the design of the agency. Abolishing either would make little sense, we’d just have to put them back together again right away afterwards and it would be a whole mess for nothing. Cleaning house in ICE should be the priority.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:10:31 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268265: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:21:14 PM

I'm all for dismantling ICE and making a new agency.

Even then I'm not sure that criminal immigrants is worth its own agency anyway.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268266: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:25:21 PM

[up] “Dismantling” ICE, and then putting together a new agency that does the exact same thing with the exact same employees and resources?

That’s not dismantlement, that’s rebranding. It just sounds catchier to say it’s going to be destroyed. If that’s the language that needs to be used to sell a rebranding to Democrats then so be it, but let’s be realistic about what’s actually happening.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:26:07 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268267: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:28:05 PM

That would literally be not what I said given I said I don't actually think ICE should exist as its mission does not require its own agency and is highly dubious to begin with.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#268268: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:28:39 PM

I have to agree with archonspeaks here. If you acknowledge that ICE actually does necessary things (and I think most in the conversation do), and just want to get rid of the terrible immigration stuff, I fail to see a meaningful distinction between just saying that and "destroy ICE and make a new organization that does most of the same stuff, instead of the immigration stuff."

Edited by LSBK on Jan 22nd 2019 at 6:29:03 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#268269: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:29:34 PM

Let's call the new organization FIRE. Federal Immigration...something that starts with an R...then Enforcement.

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268270: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:29:50 PM

Because I think it needs a new agency and other agencies can do it better.

And everyone involved should be fired.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268271: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:34:21 PM

[up] I mean...you are aware that most of what ICE does isn’t immigration stuff, right? They’re the main agency that handles child pornography investigations. They do counterfeit pharmaceuticals, which have been a deadly serious issue in the US. Human trafficking, arms smuggling (they actually arrest more US citizens for trying to smuggle arms out of the country than the other way around) and international crime.

The immigration stuff is horrible. I think any reasonable person will agree on that. It’s a big agency though, and what you’re proposing doesn’t make a lot of sense considering it wouldn’t really amount to anything but a name change in the end. Scrape out the deportation mission, re-budget the agency, and the job is done.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:37:14 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#268272: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:40:18 PM

Yes and I believe it does the jobs worse than breaking it up to other agencies.

I believe ICE is inefficient and should be shut down with its duties sent to other groups.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#268273: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:47:40 PM

[up] Breaking it up among other agencies would be by far the worse choice.

Having these missions broken up among many agencies was the whole reason ICE, DHS and the DIA were formed in the first place. When it’s split up among many different groups it’s hard for things to get done. It’s especially baffling that you’re saying it would be more efficient.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:48:42 AM

They should have sent a poet.
TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#268274: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:51:01 PM

Volunteers booked for trying to get food and water to migrants in the desert.

There's no fething justice worth the name these days.

I hold the secrets of the machine.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#268275: Jan 22nd 2019 at 4:56:06 PM

[up][up] I do think a rebrand is necessary though, for PR reasons, if nothing else.

So maybe the most realistic solution is a dismantling of ERO, and a name change for the remaining agencies.

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 22nd 2019 at 7:56:35 AM


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