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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#268101: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:27:52 AM

Warren got baited by Trump shows some really piss poor judgment to be quite honest.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#268102: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:30:22 AM

I like her more already. Anyone that makes the rich squirm - especially after those stunts they've pulled with the voodoo economics that is neoclassical ideology - is A-OK with me.

Sorry, not sorry. I hope she wins and screws over Wall Street and the Wealthy over hard.

It's rather hypocritical to talk about voodoo economics when defending Warren, what is her tolerance for tariffs if not a perfect example of Voodoo economics?

Tariffs are taxes that help a very limited portion of the population at the expense of the rest, no serious candidate should support them.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 21st 2019 at 12:30:46 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268103: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:33:06 AM

She didn't "claim" it in the sense it was portrayed. She filled out an unimportant form and made a cross at native American heritage.

Honestly, to me the fact that in order to get something on her, the Republicans had to dig to this stupid form paper, is something which speaks for her in may eyes, not against her.

Plus, she is usually right regarding wall street.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#268104: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:35:03 AM

Tariffs are not always, uniformly bad. Debt is not always, uniformly bad. Taxes are not always, uniformly good. It is a mistake to speak of economics in absolutes, which is something I look out for as a red flag in anyone running for office. Speaking in blacks and whites about economic issues makes you look like someone trying to score rhetorical points with an audience rather than someone serious about governing.

[up] That's not the whole story. Trump started goading her over her claim by calling her "Pocahontas", so she performed one of those commercial DNA tests to prove her Native American ancestry. It came back very minor, from what I remember. To me it's less an issue about race than it is about Warren allowing herself to be provoked in a sensationalist way.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 21st 2019 at 12:36:18 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#268105: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:35:16 AM

[up]x3 Fair enough, what she's got isn't perfect. Tariffs and protectionist behaviour is folly, especially in this day and age.

I'm still willing to swallow that in exchange for making Wall Street feel some hurt. I know, irrational hatred, but it is what it is - I'll fully admit I'm being hypocritical, but I'm on the side of anyone who makes the wealthy pay their fair share and cut them down to size.

Much like M84 said, she isn't my first choice. But if she wins the primaries, I'm all for her taking the White House and getting down to brasstacks.

Edited by TechPriest90 on Jan 21st 2019 at 12:35:27 PM

I hold the secrets of the machine.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268106: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:35:26 AM

[up][up][up]The thing is, when confronted on this, she dug herself deeper. "High cheekbones"? That DNA test, which the Cherokee Nation called bullshit on? WTF?

Edited by M84 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:35:39 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#268107: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:37:26 AM

Tariffs are not always, uniformly bad. Debt is not always, uniformly bad. Taxes are not always, uniformly good. It is a mistake to speak of economics in absolutes, which is something I look out for as a red flag in anyone running for office. Speaking in blacks and whites about economic issues makes you look like someone trying to score rhetorical points with an audience rather than someone serious about governing.

Ok, when are tariffs good?

Because outside of protecting nascent industries (which most certainly does not apply to the US) I don't really see any reason to believe that hypothetical left-wing protectionism would be less disastrous than the actual right-wing protectionism.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#268108: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:37:40 AM

someone who attempted to claim Cherokee descent on grounds so spurious that even the Cherokee Nation called her out on it...
Important distinction there: she claimed to have Cherokee ancestry several generations removed. She never claimed to be Cherokee or have any claim to their history or culture. The DNA test seems to have borne out the idea that she had a Cherokee ancestor at some point. The Cherokee Nation's statement on the matter was to clarify that she is not a member of the Cherokee Nation and does not qualify for citizenship under their rules.

Edited by NativeJovian on Jan 21st 2019 at 12:38:36 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268109: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:39:25 AM

[up]This is what they had to say in response to that test:

"A DNA test is useless to determine tribal citizenship. Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America," Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said. "Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation. Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage."

The Cherokee Nation wasn't happy.

Edited by M84 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:44:43 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#268110: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:43:43 AM

Honestly, I still think they're wrong.

Heritage is not the same thing as ancestry, by claiming that she had Native American ancestors she was just being factual as the test showed. Heritage implies culture and upbringing both of which Warren lacked and something that she rightfully did not claim to have.

Though as others have said the real problem is that she was so easily baited by Trump.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 21st 2019 at 12:44:50 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#268111: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:45:18 AM

This DNA test/ancestry thing is a quintessential oversold scandal and I can't shake the impression that the concerns raised by the Cherokee Nation on this question are arguing against a claim that Warren never made.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268112: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:48:58 AM

But she DIDN'T try to claim anything. Her mother always told her that she had a native American ancestor, she made a cross at a form, the republicans dug it up and made a huge deal out of it, which lead to Trump calling her Pocahontas at every opportunity and insisting that he would pay up if she made a test, which then lead to her making the test and releasing a video in which she made perfectly clear that she doesn't see herself as native American or thinks that she is entitled to any benefits for native American or is claiming Native American Heritage, but is happy that he mother didn't "lie" to her regarding her ancestors.

The whole story is just another version of "BUT HER E-MAILS!!!!!". Nobody should fall for it and instead calling out everyone who keep making a big deal of it. It's a made up controversy and everyone who participate in it should be ashamed of falling so easily for it.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 21st 2019 at 9:49:54 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268113: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:50:45 AM

[up]It wouldn't have been a real issue if she had just ignored it. But instead, she doubled down with that DNA test. At which point she managed to piss off the Cherokee Nation.

Not a good look.

Issues of ancestry and heritage are understandably kind of a big deal to them.

Edited by M84 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 1:51:57 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#268114: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:54:59 AM

Frankly, I am kinda surprised so many people here are giving credence to Trump's distortion of the narrative. Did she react the Best Possible Way? Maybe not, who gives a shit? But continuing to talk about it and hold it against her is just giving credit to Trumps bullshit which, to me, is ridiculous.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#268115: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:55:32 AM

The main problem with it is bad optics, really. It's the big reason why I soured on Warren.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268116: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:56:39 AM

She also appaently only clarified that she wasn't claiming Cherokee citizenship or anything like that after the Cherokee Nation called her out.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268117: Jan 21st 2019 at 9:57:29 AM

[up] I would say it worked, because since she did it, Trump FINALLY shut up about it. Otherwise this would have come up again and again. Now this whole non-issue can die down unless people make it an issue by acting as if she claimed an heritage when she specifically said that no, she doesn't, she claims that she has a native American ancestor. Which is true. There is really nothing to see there.

And no, watch the DAMNED VIDEO in which she makes the test, her clarifying that she doesn't claim the heritage for herself is part of it. There was no reason to attack her for doing something she specified not to do. And the only reason why I am NOT calling out the Cherokees for this kind of BS is because I understand that it is a very sensitive issue for them. And a matter of protecting their money, because they don't want X people starting to claim a share of their tribe money on the basis of those DNA tests.

[up][up] Well, then congrats for falling for Trump's tricks. Shows that even people who should know better can't help themselves but getting influenced by propaganda.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 21st 2019 at 10:02:14 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268118: Jan 21st 2019 at 10:00:55 AM

Together, these things make me consider Warren someone who has tunnel vision focused only on the financial industry, is too quick to go along with populist crap, and is too easily baited by some asshole insinuating her mom was a liar.

She's still not the worst possible Democratic candidate (because Gabbard) and she's loads better than Trump.

But I'm not going to pretend she doesn't have problems she needs to fix.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#268119: Jan 21st 2019 at 10:03:42 AM

[up] None of those are problems any other candidate would have too, because what you just described is just blowing things out of proportions. You can bet that the republicans will find something along the line they can push regarding every single candidate the democrats might pick.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268120: Jan 21st 2019 at 10:06:42 AM

[up]Of course they will. That doesn't change the fact that these are very real problems with Warren.

She needs to show she can deal with things other than Wall Street.

She needs to show she won't fall into populist bullshit again.

She needs to show she won't be baited by childish insults into doing something stupid.

She needs to give up that protectionist crap.

Edited by M84 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 2:08:10 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#268121: Jan 21st 2019 at 10:07:58 AM

I like Warren, I do, but two things can be true: The DNA test was given far too much importance by the sensationalist media and it was also bloody stupid of her to do it.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268122: Jan 21st 2019 at 10:09:03 AM

Now, I'm not going to go out of my way to paint Warren as the worst. But I do feel it's important to point out what I think are flaws whenever someone puts her on a pedestal or something just because she's all "fuck Wall Street".

Generally, I think it's a bad idea to get too emotionally invested in any public figure. Screw messianic politics.

The funny thing is that she's still in my top three candidate list.

Edited by M84 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 2:10:23 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#268123: Jan 21st 2019 at 10:11:35 AM

Warren does need to expand on issues outside of economics, but she's covered more ground in the regard that Sanders has. I can't get myself worked up over her DNA test, and as someone just a few generations removed from full blooded Indians (a people from Chihuahua, Mexico) I honestly find it disheartening that people are so willing to write off one of her family matriarchs.

Granted, I'm looking at this from a Hispanic perspective, where people constantly try to downplay their native heritage.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#268124: Jan 21st 2019 at 10:13:02 AM

The financial industry needs some serious focus, it’s one of the more destructive elements of modern society and is the reason that Republicans are still a viable political force.

Yes there are good people in the financial sector, same way there are good people in the Republican Party, with both there is a role for what they do (financial services and being an opposition party) in society, but as they currently are they’re doing insane amounts of harm and need to be stopped before they destroy even more lives.

Just because good individuals exist within a system doesn’t change the fact that said system is doing huge amounts of damage and deserves to be demonised to the level required to stop it harming innocents.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 21st 2019 at 6:14:24 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#268125: Jan 21st 2019 at 10:16:11 AM

[up]It is in serious need of enforced regulation. My ex stockbroker relative is in full agreement with that.

But the POTUS needs to handle so much more than Wall Street and bankers.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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