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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#267976: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:20:46 PM

The problem with Sanders' vision is that it puts minorities on the back of the bus. He's repeatedly prioritized economic justice and the issues of "ordinary Americans" over racial justice, thinking that if the former is settled the latter will just magically fix itself. He's also criticized "identity politics" (while simultaneously emphasizing the "white working class"), which, as far as I'm concerned, kinda locks you out of being a true progressive.

Yes, minority issues definitely need to be something he revises his opinions on and I'm not at all as fond of him as a candidate as I used to be. I think there's other candidates who take his economic positions and add minority issues to them.

Nevertheless, none of what his positions are, are wrong. They're just incomplete.

Again also "true progressive" is a word that I often raise an eyebrow regarding.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 20th 2019 at 6:22:11 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#267977: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:23:40 PM

[up]As long as Sanders thinks civil rights is something he can put on the backburner or treat as secondary rather than being an issue just as important as economic reform if not more so...he's going to have a tough time winning over people who care about these issues.

Especially with the gaffes he's made over the years that have made some of us wonder if maybe he actually is just a bit racist or sexist.

And it's completely valid to consider him not a true progressive. You yourself said his stance is incomplete (at best). A true progressive would have the complete package.

Edited by M84 on Jan 20th 2019 at 10:25:46 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#267978: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:39:35 PM

Close enough to count, rather than trying to define an exact definition.

Otherwise you open the door on the other side to arguing what is or is not communism and fascism.

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#267979: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:45:27 PM

"I think there's other candidates who take his economic positions and add minority issues to them."

Precisely. The focus should be on pushing these candidates up rather than putting Sanders down.

Le Garcon, what I'm saying is, focusing energy on rejecting Sanders because of his blind spots is wasteful. He must be taken advantage of for all the help he can provide, because, while he doesn't put effort on all the things we need him to, all the things he puts effort in are things we need. He's useful, and should be taken from according ti his capacity.

What I'm trying ti do by quoting MLK and Malcolm X, just as I think the former meant to do, is appeal to the moral coherence of the 'moderate liberal'. I am asking them to sacrifice perceived security and comfort and status for the sake of doing what they know in their hearts to be in everyone's best interest, without 'Golden Mean' moderation and without delay. It's not a rejection, it's a challenge. It's meant to spur one into action. But, more importantly even, it shows that the downtrodden will not be placated or cajoled, they will not be made to wait for justice to be granted to them. They will take it, and if the mod libs won't help, the least they can do is not stand in the way, wasting everyone's energy into pointless bickerings on tone policing and hollow civility and 'playing ball' with lobbyists and special interests.

Impeach the motherfucker, is what I'm saying, in spirit. Take action, and call a monster a monster.

Centrists like to say, the status quo is okay, it's just life, bear with it, make lemonade.

No. Burn "life"'s house down, with the lemons.

Figuratively.

Edited by Oruka on Jan 20th 2019 at 6:54:15 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#267980: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:47:46 PM

[up][up]Not even close enough.

Is that too high a standard? No. I don't think actually caring about minorities' issues and making them one of your top priorities is too high a standard.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#267981: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:48:36 PM

The idea Sanders' progressive bonafides are 'unimpeachable' is absurd. All he has done for decades is talk. He talked, he got nothing done, and then he talked some more. And then he compromised on a multitude of issues. He compromised on guns, he compromised on criminal justice and he waved those votes like trophies to appeal more moderate and tough on crime. As late as 2015, he still thought most drug dealers were black.

Then he decided he wanted to be President and ran a bitter, scorched earth campaign ith toxic culture, ignored women being sexually harassed, allied with some of the most repulsive and divisive figures in the left, found out Russia was using his campaign for propaganda and did fuck all to stop it until one volunteer reported it to the Clinton campaign without his knowledge.

You know who moved the party left? Activists, people fighting for those issues. Stop ascribing it all to Bernie Sanders because his useless temper tantrums did little there. He was behind the curve on criminal justice. Gillibrand outflanked him on a jobs proposal bill. Universal Healthcare has been a plank of the Dems for decades....Sanders isn't progressive on women's rights or racial issues. He's a late arrival to these issues and so ridiculously clumsy on them because he doesn't get them. Look at his dismissal of the women who were harassed. "Oh, I didn't know, I was too busy" even though his campaign paid out a 300K settlement?

He has achieved next to nothing in his primaries, in the elections he's championed. His chosen candidates keep losing. He has shown no capacity to deliver anything electorally. He's a bitter old man screaming at a party he refuses to join. What does he have to offer? He's not a particular good person. He's a finger-wagging moral scold

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 20th 2019 at 6:50:05 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#267982: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:52:16 PM

Oh that's ridiculous.

Sanders has continually championed progressive issues and economic reform and for the most part has definitely been a part of that trend. He's not a Democratic player and prefers to cultivate "outsider" cred but his efforts to move the Democrats left have yielded great dividends.

America has strongly benefited from his efforts and the Democratic Party which has caught up with the 21st century.

It's just moved past him.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 20th 2019 at 6:52:47 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#267983: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:55:36 PM

Oh that's ridiculous.

Sanders has continually championed progressive issues and economic reform and for the most part has definitely been a part of that trend. He's not a Democratic player and prefers to cultivate "outsider" cred but his efforts to move the Democrats left have yielded great dividends.

As to what? Sanders refused to support Clinton's push for Univeral Healthcare because, in his own words, it was 'flawed.' He thrust himself to the right on guns and criminal justice and bragged about those issues until it became politically inconvenient. He tried to dump toxic waste on a poor Latino town and then told them to take a hike when they asked to meet with him. The Dems moved left in response to activist pressure, not because "Bernie the Great White Hope."

You're right: he's not a Democratic player and that hurts him because our system requires you to compromise and make deals.

America has strongly benefited from his efforts and the Democratic Party which has caught up with the 21st century.

It's just moved past him.

His career is distinguished only in how undistinguished it is. Ironically, the only major piece of legislation he's ever authored beyond naming post offices was a compromise with John McCain.

He's a bitter old joke and deserves to fade.

When people say he 'champions' issues, they mean he wags his finger at those who disagree and yells at him for it. Nothing gets done that way. Compare him to say, Henry Waxman, who did far more for issues than Bernie Sanders ever did. Bernie's great legacy is a legion of angry bros online who go after people who say anything bad about Bernie Sanders.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 20th 2019 at 6:56:42 AM

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#267984: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:56:51 PM

[up][up]Thanks again.

He is becoming obsolete. But he's not trash just yet.

[up]As opposed to angry 'purists' of another kind who go off scolding anyone who says anything good about him?

Edited by Oruka on Jan 20th 2019 at 7:04:29 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#267985: Jan 20th 2019 at 6:59:50 PM

He's been trash for a long time.

He just confirmed it recently. It's a special kind of revolting hypocrite to attack someone for supporting a bill he voted for and waved around like a trophy for years to prove he was tough on crime. it's a special kind of terrible to vote to protect he gun lobbies and tell the families of gun violence you owe them nothing.

When people try to praise Bernie Sanders, it's generally in vagaries. He's 'such a champion.' He 'fights so hard.' Absent from this are any sort of tangible accomplishments. Bernie hates sullying his idealism with icky politics. He doesn't really care about getting things done if he can't bluster about and order it.

This is the man who decided to save his flagging campaign by inviting himself to a Vatican conference, lying that the pope himself invited him and waited to ambush photobomb Pope Francis. People just forget what a bitter joke his campaign was because Clinton lost.

[up] There's not enough hours in the day to go off at people who praise Sanders. But the debate is being held here and now.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 20th 2019 at 7:01:31 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#267986: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:01:14 PM

[up]What bill was this, and who was he criticizing?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#267987: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:02:15 PM

The Clinton signed Omnibus crime bill. He attacked Clinton for supporting it, and either didn't mention his own support for it, or just lied about it.

He spent years throwing it around as proof he was tough on crime.

Bernie Sanders has built a brand around himself. But a lot of that is campaign rhetoric, not fact. This is the man who Vermonter Civil rights leaders have claimed considered them invisible.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 20th 2019 at 7:03:44 AM

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#267988: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:05:04 PM

You're right, though, he's unimportant compared to the activists. Barely a lightning rod. Let's talk about them. Let's talk about direct action. What've folks.been up to, lately, in your regions and neighborhood? How are grassrooters outcompeting lobbyists?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#267989: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:07:58 PM

Bernie Sanders is worthless as a politician. He's all talk and no action, and the one thing he's good at, talking, constantly gets him in trouble when he says something stupid, ignorant, or outdated. His tendency to shit-talk the Democrats doesn't help anyone except the Republicans, and it only hurts the Dems who are actually trying to do something to help this country.

Fuck Bernie Sanders, honestly. He's a fauxgressive ignorant old white man who openly doesn't care about "identity politics", i.e: all issues that don't affect him as an old white man. No wonder Bernie Bros and the Unicorn Brigade are the way that they are if this idiot is the face of their movement.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 20th 2019 at 8:09:40 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#267990: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:09:44 PM

The biggest metric of this? Sanders championing Heath Mello while saying they didn't need to be perfect on 'every issue' because Mello was anti-abortion.

But his personal economic issues are inviolate.

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#267991: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:17:59 PM

Why are we still talking about him, though?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#267992: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:20:58 PM

Because he's being talked about and may run for President.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#267993: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:25:27 PM

Yeah. He is unfortunately relevant since he is likely planning another run for President in 2020.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#267994: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:28:42 PM

Let's hope he doesn't. I like Warren, she's on a redemption arc, not a corruption/compromise one. An ex-Rep who arrived at Social Democracy through common sense.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#267995: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:34:51 PM

I agree that any argument over "True Progressive" does not seem like one worth the time.

I do agree that Sanders' message fell flat among many black voters because he ignored their specific issues that make his economic policies divorced from reality. As Elizabeth Warren put it:

"The rules are rigged because the rich and powerful have bought and paid for too many politicians," Ms. Warren said. "And if we dare to ask questions, they will try to divide us. Pit white working people against black and brown working people so they won't band together and demand real change. The rich and powerful want us pointing fingers at each other so we won’t notice they are getting richer and more powerful."

"Two sets of rules: one for the wealthy and the well-connected. And one for everybody else," she said. "Two sets of rules: one for white families. And one for everybody else. That’s how a rigged system works. And that's what we need to change."

I will also acknowledge, though, that Sanders is aware that he screwed up trying to reach out to African Americans and is trying to change. When people blew up at him for essentially coddling racist sentiment as an explanation for why Andrew Gillum and Stacey Abrams lost their elections, he quickly realized how wrong he was and issued a much stronger statement:

"There's no question that in Georgia and in Florida racism has reared its ugly head. And you have candidates who ran against Gillum and ran against Stacey Abrams who were racist and were doing everything they could to try to play whites against blacks," he said. "And that is an outrage, and we have got to continue doing everything that we can to fight all forms of racism."

He'll be attending a Martin Luther King Day event tomorrow in South Carolina and speaking to students from historically black colleges.

Now that I mentioned it, a lot of Democratic (not-)candidates will be brushing their credentials for black voters tomorrow.

Kirsten Gillibrand (Whose name I just can't spell right for some reason):

is expected at [civil rights group National Action Network]] headquarters in Harlem on Monday afternoon. Dozens of local, state and federal leaders will rally around a “common agenda for 2020 presidential race,”

Joe Biden:

Sharpton and his civil rights group, the National Action Network, are scheduled to host three purported presidential contenders on Monday. In Washington, the group’s annual Martin Luther King Jr. Day Breakfast will feature former Vice President Joe Biden and former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg. The mayor will give remarks, and Biden will receive an honor from the group.

Biden will speak to King’s legacy, a spokesperson for him told NBCBLK.

Cory Booker:

who has yet to make an announcement about his presidential plans, is scheduled to speak at Martin Luther King Jr. weekend events in the South, a key courting ground for Democratic White House hopefuls. His office said Booker would address thousands of charter school students in New Orleans on Friday, and was scheduled to attend a prayer service and march on Monday organized by the state conference of the NAACP in Columbia, South Carolina.

“As we pause to remember the man on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, it’s important not to forget his movement," Booker said in a statement to NBCBLK. "What really made Dr. King great was that he inspired us to be great. He ignited others to engage and to stand up and fight for justice in this nation. He inspired this country to live up to its highest ideals."

Elizabeth Warren is doing a double feature, MLK Day even and a rally with airport workers forced to work without pay:

U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren plans to rally with Boston airport workers to highlight the federal government shutdown and other concerns.

The Democrat, who is weighing a run for president, will join labor union leaders, workers and other elected officials Monday at Logan Airport’s international terminal.

Warren is also speaking Monday at the Martin Luther King Day Memorial Breakfast at the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center.

“It's incredibly important to honor the life and legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and reaffirm the fight for social, racial and economic justice," Warren said in a statement to NBCBLK.

Sherrod Brown:

Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio has yet to officially announce a bid, but plans to hold campaign-style events in Iowa and New Hampshire, another early primary state. The senator’s office confirmed his participation in an annual King breakfast celebration in Cleveland, followed by a volunteer event at a local elementary school.

"Dr. King taught that 'all labor has dignity.' For far too many people in this country today, hard work isn’t paying off like it should." Brown said in a statement to NBCBLK. "And as we work to change that, we must acknowledge that it's even worse for workers of color - not only because they are disproportionately affected by the economic challenges, but because they face those challenges while also having to navigate institutional racism that makes it even harder to get ahead no matter how hard they work."

Kamala Harris:

Sen. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.), who has also not made an official announcement on running, will reportedly be speaking in Oakland, Calif., on Monday.

"Right now, I believe we are at an inflection point in the history of our country, a moment in time like when my parents met in Oakland in the 1960s, marching and shouting for justice," Harris said in a statement to NBCBLK. "It's important today to remember that Dr. King's fight then was about understanding that we are all equal and affirming that we will fight for that beautiful premise."

Harris will be the one to keep an eye on tomorrow, as she's rumored to be officially announcing her candidacy at the event she'll be attending.

Edited by Parable on Jan 20th 2019 at 7:39:29 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#267996: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:35:53 PM

Unfortunately, all signs point to him planning a 2020 run.

Bernie Sanders staffs up for 2020

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#267997: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:39:15 PM

I will also acknowledge, though, that Sanders is aware that he screwed up trying to reach out to African Americans and is trying to change. When people blew up at him for essentially coddling racist sentiment as an explanation for why Andrew Gillum and Stacey Abrams lost their elections, he quickly realized how wrong he was and issued a much stronger statement:

There wasn't much 'essentially' about it...Sanders has tripped over himself to excuse the racism of white voters, and when he went to speak to a black audience for an event for Dr. King event, he talked down to them quite a bit.

Is he trying to change or is he trying to win and knows he can't do it without them?

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 20th 2019 at 7:40:31 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#267998: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:42:36 PM

Only positive of Bernie running is that it further hurts Gabbard's run.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#267999: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:43:18 PM

[up][up]He's belatedly realized that what works in Vermont, a state where the population is over 90% white, won't work in the rest of the USA.

[up]As long as Sanders doesn't decide to make her his VP candidate or something.

Edited by M84 on Jan 20th 2019 at 11:43:50 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#268000: Jan 20th 2019 at 7:48:44 PM

We'll see if Bernie fucks up this year's MLK day as badly as he fucked up last year's.


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