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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Imca (Veteran)
#267301: Jan 15th 2019 at 8:43:37 PM

Speaking as an LGBT woman.

The platforms that they don't actually back up in action? There is a reason that I brought up the dreamers a while back, the DNC has lots of platforms of "We support you" and then they immediately back down when it comes time for action.

By denouncing the women's march, which was literally the one hope spot there was in the past two years, to see all the people turn out and go "this is not okay".... your doing the same back to us, saying we don't mater.

Denouncing the leadership is one thing, but severing ties with the whole thing sends a strong message that it is exactly as you say it isn't.

Because as noted on the last page it is that a single leader is friends with some one shitty, not the whole organization...

Edited by Imca on Jan 15th 2019 at 8:49:47 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#267302: Jan 15th 2019 at 8:48:57 PM

Women’s march is not the only hope spot. I’m glad it’s meant a lot to you, but there’s other work going on too. And asking that antisemitism be disregarded for the sake of hope is... not very fair. And if the leadership changed (or even apologized better) the DNC would probably become affiliated again.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 15th 2019 at 11:49:52 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#267303: Jan 15th 2019 at 8:50:57 PM

For someone who knows aboslutely nothing about Women's March, is the problem it's associated with the Nation of Islam?

That's the "hate group"?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Imca (Veteran)
#267304: Jan 15th 2019 at 8:51:33 PM

[up][up] Then what else has there been? Its just been constant gloom from where I have seen it. What with rapists being elected to the suprme court, it taking weeks for the dems to evict there own sexual assaultist, trumps whole pussy grabing thing...

Some people here claim the mid-terms as one, but if any thing they were the exact oppisite to me, the dems won the part they were all but gaurenteed too, but lost a large amount of senate seats, setting them up for failure the next election.... failed in key states that had the attention of every one, and just.... it was a mess that if any thing has re-assured me that there is a significiant chance this is going to be a two term problem not a single term one. :/

[up] One of the leaders is friends with there leader, key word, one.

Edited by Imca on Jan 15th 2019 at 8:51:58 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#267305: Jan 15th 2019 at 8:51:45 PM

[up][up]Yup. Farrakhan specifically moreso than Nation of Islam.

[up] If it’s a comfort, the 2018 Senate map was bad, and the 2020 map is much better. The House can do a lot to hold Trump back/investigate/subpoena. The courts keep squelching Trump’s exec orders, that that birth control one earlier this week.

[down] Could you explain?

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 15th 2019 at 11:54:13 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#267306: Jan 15th 2019 at 8:53:05 PM

Just noting because that's a very complicated group to dismiss that way with full knowledge of its racial biases.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#267307: Jan 15th 2019 at 8:58:19 PM

The Women's March was certainly a seminal movement, especially the first one, and - as one of, if not the, most prominent #resist actions - it's hard to not view it with a certain amount of attachment and want to see it continue and grow past this. Especially for those whose involvement with the Women's March is where they started to get involved. But I don't think that the DNC cutting off ties with the national march leaders is tantamount to the DNC dissolving any support of protest/resistant actions in general.

Imca (Veteran)
#267308: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:01:04 PM

I know the map was like, really bad, but with how aweful this administration was I was expecting them to at least hold firm..... the amount of seats lost, just makes 2020 that much harder....

And then there was the whole loosing key areas with lots of focus, that just absolutely decimated any remaining hope... EX: Georgia where it was corrupt as fuck, and Flordia where the guy honestly looked like a parody and was up agianst a strong canidate.... in what was suposed to be a swing state.

Texas too, even though I had zero hope for that one.

Edited by Imca on Jan 15th 2019 at 9:03:19 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#267309: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:01:41 PM

[up][up][up]Louis Farrakhan however, is not complicated. He's very proudly openly anti-semitic.

Something the co-leader of the March ought to know. She attended a speech of his last year in which he stated things like “the powerful Jews are my enemy,” and “the Jews were responsible for all of this filth and degenerate behavior that Hollywood is putting out turning men into women and women into men.”

Edited by M84 on Jan 16th 2019 at 1:02:15 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#267310: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:01:58 PM

It feels like the biggest problem is that when you just denounce groups and don't support others at the same time, it seems more like a holier-than-thou test than actually caring about the goals of the group in question. Sort of the reverse-republican standpoint: "we'll stick with you until you make us look bad then you're out regardless of what you're for."

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#267311: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:02:55 PM

[up]Except as others have pointed out, the DNC does support other feminist groups.

The Women's March isn't the be-all end-all of feminism.

Edited by M84 on Jan 16th 2019 at 1:06:43 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#267312: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:07:23 PM

Mueller filed a declaration detailing how and why Mueller believes Manafort lied. The document is heavily redacted, so the main thing we can learn from it is that there appears to be many reasons to believe Manafort lied, and there's a lot we don't know.

The heavily redacted document can be read here.

They also mention several hundred pages of evidence, which is kinda insane.

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 15th 2019 at 12:12:03 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#267313: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:10:03 PM

Could you explain?

Well the Nation of Islam was a seminal part of the Black Pride movement and you know, Malcolm X (with his tragedies as well as complicated history with the group—err to put it mildly given his death).

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 15th 2019 at 9:10:41 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#267314: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:12:48 PM

I had heard that there were other issues with the leadership. Namely, one of the founders of the Woman's March was pushed out by the other leaders specifically for being Jewish, whilst being subjected to verbal abuse for being Jewish. Granted I only read this today and I'm not familiar with the sources involved, but if true this goes beyond "one of the founders is friends with a bigot and refuses to denounce their bigotry when prompted repeatedly."

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#267315: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:19:50 PM

Here’s what we can get out of it. Honestly, even the redacted version really shows how much Mueller and his team know. It’s astounding.

Special counsel Mueller filed a new document today providing supporting evidence re. the allegation that Paul Manafort lied. The document is a 31-page sworn declaration from an FBI agent, and it is supplemented by a few hundred pages of exhibits.

Here, Mueller's filing shows that Paul Manafort gave permission for someone to name-drop him during a meeting with Trump. This was in May 2018, just a month before Manafort's bail was revoked for violating the terms of his house arrest. Mueller has the text message.

Paul Manafort reportedly told Rick Gates in Jan. 2017 that he was using "intermediaries" to get people appointed in the Trump administration. That is new information.

Manafort lied about turning over his electronic devices to investigators. According to today's filing, "in more than ten instances," Manafort failed to give investigators passwords to his electronic communications, thumb drives, or documents.

This is a good time to remember that Rick Gates was still making regular trips to the White House through at least June 2017.

(And as we learned today, Gates is still cooperating & providing valuable info to investigators in *multiple* investigations).

This section appears to refer to payments made by the pro-Trump PAC Rebuilding America Now. Also refers to a media firm that worked for the PAC — likely Multi Media Services, the PAC's #1 vendor in the 2016 cycle.

Manafort reportedly lied about a $125,000 payment from the PAC.

Background on Rebuilding America Now PAC: Just after Manafort joined the Trump campaign, he brought on 2 longtime associates (Laurance Gay, who is a godfather to Manafort’s daughter, & political operative Ken Mc Kay). Weeks later, Manafort directed Gay & Mc Kay to form the PAC.

This likely breaks an FEC rule requiring a 120-day cooling-off period before a campaign staffer can play a role in a super PAC supporting that campaign. Rebuilding America ran its 1st pro-Trump ad less than 50 days after Mc Kay & Gay joined the campaign. 2/

The Trump campaign & Rebuilding America PAC reportedly placed ads using the same media buying firms, which could violate FEC rules prohibiting coordination between campaigns & PA Cs. So there are some potential campaign finance violations there. 3/

In December, Mueller filed a memo  alleging that Paul Manafort lied to prosecutors about a $125,000 payment made in 2017 from Rebuilding America Now towards Manafort’s debt. So that's what is being referenced in today's filing. 4/

The fact that so much is redacted is telling as well.

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 15th 2019 at 12:21:16 PM

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#267316: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:23:33 PM

[up][up][up]

It's noteworthy to point out that Malcolm X eventually cut ties with the Nation of Islam after he converted to Sunni Islam and realised that, much like Christianity, Islam strives for unity beyond the borders of race.

Edited by raziel365 on Jan 15th 2019 at 9:23:47 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#267317: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:24:39 PM

Speaking as an LGBT woman.

The platforms that they don't actually back up in action? There is a reason that I brought up the dreamers a while back, the DNC has lots of platforms of "We support you" and then they immediately back down when it comes time for action.

Yes, the platforms they...don't back up in action? What? You want to go through a list here?

By denouncing the women's march, which was literally the one hope spot there was in the past two years, to see all the people turn out and go "this is not okay".... your doing the same back to us, saying we don't mater.

If this was your 'one hope spot,' I have to question what you're actually watching. The midterms? the special elections? The judicial victories? The resignation of Trump's cabinet members?

There's a point when pessimism just stops being realistic. The Democrats picked up 40 house seats, crushed at the state levels...they had a net loss of 2 senate seats which considering the historically awful map, is quite good.

Denouncing the leadership is one thing, but severing ties with the whole thing sends a strong message that it is exactly as you say it isn't.

Because as noted on the last page it is that a single leader is friends with some one shitty, not the whole organization...

This isn't accurate.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 15th 2019 at 9:26:52 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#267318: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:44:18 PM

Honestly this needs to happen.

Couple senior Republican lawmakers tell me the only way this breaks open is if TSA employees stay home and Americans get furious about their flights. That’s the only out, they say. And they’re close to the WH.

It would be Especially good if it was the DC airport.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#267319: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:46:35 PM

Sounds like it would be the flight controller strike all over again. You can't expect public servants to risk their futures over an issue that they had nothing to do with.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Ingonyama Since: Jan, 2001
#267320: Jan 15th 2019 at 9:58:19 PM

Re: several pages back on the Democratic candidate list, Jay Inslee is the Governor of Washington State. From what I've seen he's a good man, has passed a great deal of progressive legislation, is especially focused on fighting climate change, and has been a firm part of the Resistance. However he's obviously not very well known, so I doubt he'll get far in the primaries, though you never know. Hopefully his inclusion can at least get more people talking about environmental concerns so that they end up emphasized in the party platform.

[up]Why not? They're already not getting paid and cannot support themselves and their families, and many are already quitting to find other jobs. So this does indeed affect them, their futures are already at risk, and such an action wouldn't be much different from what they're already doing. And if they get fired for striking, they can't just be replaced with new workers like Reagan did because...who would take such jobs when they're not being paid for them?

Edited by Ingonyama on Jan 15th 2019 at 10:01:42 AM

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#267321: Jan 15th 2019 at 10:01:12 PM

Imca, leaders are not just people, they are also representatives of their groups, hence why it's so important that the one of the members of the upper echelon of the Women's march is friendly with a noted anti-semite, not to mention that the Nation of Islam is, by their tenants, an anti-white organization, or against anyone they deem as exploitative of the black community.

If the highest leaders, that is, those that are the face of the Women's march at the national level, refuse to distance one of their own for her ties with someone like Louis Farrakhan, then that is basically saying, at the entire country of the US, that such behaviour is tolerated by the entire group.

We know that it isn't, by the various rejections from the chapters of other cities, but until the leaders of the group change their posture, they condemn the entire movement to be seen as tolerant of Farrakhan's actions.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Imca (Veteran)
#267322: Jan 15th 2019 at 10:09:54 PM

Yes, the platforms they...don't back up in action? What? You want to go through a list here?

Once again, see DACA where they fucked over dreamers TWICE, in the name of capitulating for a goverment shutdown, or how they took weeks to evict a known sexual assault from congress.

There's a point when pessimism just stops being realistic. The Democrats picked up 40 house seats, crushed at the state levels...they had a net loss of 2 senate seats which considering the historically awful map, is quite good.

They picked up 40 seats which were near mathematically impossible for them not to do so, they got CRUSHED at the state level when it was any kind of competitive, see again Flordia, Texas, Georgia... and lost 2 seats when they needed to hold on to all there seats to really have a chance to flip things in 2020, I was not expecting them to win senate, but at least not leave it in a worse spot then they came in.....

The map being historically awful only works as an excuse to a point, especially since it was supposed to be a historic high point for voter enthusiasm, which apperntly it either wasn't or that doesn't mater.

The take away is 2020 is probably a wash as well, because if we cant flip any districts, and can only loose what we held, how are we supposed to evict a Cheetos who won with a rather significant district advantage. (Even if he did loose the popular vote, that is sadly irelevent come election day until such a thing is fixed)

The judicial victories?

Which wont mater since Trump got to seat two conservative justices, one of whom was a rapist, and the other one of whom was stolen.

Any local judges can just have a case punted over there head to the higher one, which will inevitably go badly for us now.

The resignation of Trump's cabinet members?

Too be replaced by worse people? Whenever you think its a good thing some one on Trumps team resigns, he finds a way to find some one worse, there is a reason every one was upset about a actual war criminal resigning... and thats that some how, an and this bears repeating ACTUAL WAR CRIMINAL who was discharged from the marines for it..... was considered the sane man on the team.

Edited by Imca on Jan 15th 2019 at 10:11:52 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#267323: Jan 15th 2019 at 10:10:46 PM

Anyone Trump replaces with who is worse will be replaced in turn. There's no would be Beria that won't be out the door in six months followed by someone else...who will also be fired.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#267324: Jan 15th 2019 at 10:33:35 PM

[up][up]A lot to unpack here.

They picked up 40 seats which were near mathematically impossible for them not to do so,
Actually, 40 is overperforming.

they got CRUSHED at the state level when it was any kind of competitive, see again Flordia, Texas, Georgia...
The Republicans barely won in Florida where millions just had their voting rights restored in spite of Republican efforts.

Georgia had rampant voter fuckery overseen by the guy who won.

Texas is still a red state, much as we may not like it.

and lost 2 seats when they needed to hold on to all there seats to really have a chance to flip things in 2020, I was not expecting them to win senate, but at least not leave it in a worse spot then they came in.....
An unrealistic hope.

The map being historically awful only works as an excuse to a point, especially since it was supposed to be a historic high point for voter enthusiasm, which apperntly it either wasn't or that doesn't mater.
It mattered enough for the Democrats to do very well in a midterm year, where Democrats normally underperform.

The take away is 2020 is probably a wash as well, because if we cant flip any districts, and can only loose what we held, how are we supposed to evict a Cheetos who won with a rather significant district advantage. (Even if he did loose the popular vote, that is sadly irelevent come election day until such a thing is fixed)
This is just needless pessimism. We flipped districts that swung for Trump in this cycle, we can gain significantly in the Senate, and Trump won through razor-thin margins in a few states that would take only slight swings in the other direction to toss his ass out, and Trump is going to actually have a record to run on this time.

It's a constant disappointment that we have a buffoonish moron in the White House ruining things day by day, and the federal judiciary is going to be a god-damn mess if Trump makes it to the end of this term, but it isn't hopeless.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#267325: Jan 15th 2019 at 10:34:38 PM

So no comment in the allegations that the national women's march leaders forced someone out for being Jewish? I was at least expecting someone to say the source wasn't credible or something that showed a different side of things


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