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CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#266376: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:27:20 AM

I would say that the "anti-elite" rhetoric is the more damning stuff. You can genuinely have an anti-establishment politician if their platform really is heterodox to the party's norm in some way. But any politician competing at a high level, anywhere in the world, is intrinsically elite.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#266377: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:31:38 AM

[up]X4 Cortez not knowing where she sits on the political spectrum and her deliberately misframing where she sits because it’s the only way the public will understand her, are not the same thing. I suspect that the reality is the later.

[up]X5 We’ve all heard your position on how democracy is bad and we should be ruled by AI before, there’s no need to repeate yourself.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 10th 2019 at 4:32:28 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#266378: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:39:43 AM

One of the most immediate issues I take with that article is that, like many other western sources, it frames democracy as if it's an end in and of itself rather than the historically optimal means of creating a functional society. I'll eventually make a long form criticism of the article so please bear with me.

Why someone should value democracy is a topic better suited for the General Politics thread (if at all), it has very little to do with US Politics at the moment.

I actually address this the last time we had this conversation, and I have personal experience with this area from family. The unions that are still standing in the present day are generally white collar middle-upper middle class professions. Those people have globally marketable skills, and those unions were able to adapt to globalization because of it, in contrast to their blue collar counterparts.

You say this but I still do not believe that it means that rates of unionization cannot be expanded, this is just as compatible with more privileged people keeping their unions because they have more power and thus can fight harder against efforts to strip away collective bargaining. Which does not mean that pushing mass organized labor is a doomed affair or in any way makes the leftist who advocates for it "regressive".

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#266379: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:41:46 AM

A lot of new union activity in my area is janitors and hospitality workers. And good for them.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#266380: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:45:38 AM

Ideally, government would guarantee labor conditions to a sufficient standard that unionization would no longer be necessary. However, the underlying problem goes deeper than that: it's one of political power. Unions are not just economic agencies; they are political agencies. They pool the resources of people who lack the individual ability to have a say in politics. This allows them to compete with the business owners and other wealthy interests who have ready access to political power.

The clawback of worker rights across the developed world isn't a natural progression; it's a very carefully orchestrated attack.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:50:34 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#266381: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:47:21 AM

Yes, and that prompted me to roll my eyes when I first saw those "Yes We Can" ads. I still liked his actual policy proposals more than the GOP ones, but still.

Given the sheer corruption and vile behavior on display, it dismays me that anyone wants to Tone Police the public's desire for a champion against it. Because if there's no one providing water, they'll drink the sand.

We need more angry anti-establishment-ism in the United States and politicians willing to use it who aren't going to immediately sign up with the Republicans after election.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 10th 2019 at 8:47:51 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266382: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:49:03 AM

[up]Me not being impressed by populist-like campaigning is hardly tone policing. I just so happen to care more about substance than style.

If all you want is an angry loudmouth who rants about elites for President...we've already got that.

Edited by M84 on Jan 11th 2019 at 12:50:18 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#266383: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:51:00 AM

There's a paradox. Populism makes for engaged voters but poor politics. Good politics tend to be boring.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:51:15 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#266384: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:52:39 AM

If I ever run for anything I WILL make infrastructure sexy goddammit. Functioning sidewalks and streetlights and bridges and water systems are awesome and necessary!

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#266385: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:53:08 AM

Good politics in America is a rare beast.

There's rarely been a politician actually for the people who was elected by the people (and throwing out "of the people" as an irrelevancy).

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#266386: Jan 10th 2019 at 8:54:51 AM

Given the sheer corruption and vile behavior on display, it dismays me that anyone wants to Tone Police the public's desire for a champion against it. Because if there's no one providing water, they'll drink the sand.

This is why I don't like anti-establishment sentiment, it too often breeds #bothsidism and ignoring the accomplishments of the left-leaning establishment.

The corruption on display is entirely amongst the Republicans and by treating it as a universal Establishment problem you tar the people who have and continue to fight against it.

Which is exactly why we see some progressives treating Tulsi Gabbard as a decent person and Nancy Pelosi as the devil. The former stands against the establishment (in words) so she must be good while the latter is part of the establishment and must be evil.

Good politics in America is a rare beast.

There's rarely been a politician actually for the people who was elected by the people (and throwing out "of the people" as an irrelevancy).

I'm in awe, you literally perfectly embodied my point.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:56:26 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#266387: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:18:04 AM

The ultimate flaw of democracy may be that people are collectively too ignorant and gullible to elect leaders that will actually do a good job of governing them. That said, we can at least make attempts to fix this problem. The worst sin of the Republican Party is that it actively works to promote ignorance and gullibility in the voting populace. That is what gives us "leaders" like Donald Trump.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:19:41 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#266388: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:24:09 AM

people are collectively too ignorant and gullible to elect leaders that will actually do a good job of governing them.

Well that’s super condescending. If anything, that’s reflective of our crap education system and our deeply flawed media, not human nature.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266389: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:27:41 AM

[up]

that’s reflective of our crap education system and our deeply flawed media

I'm pretty sure that's what Fighteer was implying.

Edited by M84 on Jan 11th 2019 at 1:28:26 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#266390: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:56:22 AM

Nope, he just said people are ignorant and gullible.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#266391: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:59:14 AM

[up]Which is literally part of the reason that a lot of people tend to be Ignorant and gullible. Poor education, poor media, and the natural human instinct of cooperation through hating something else really hard leads to ignorance, stupidity and bigotry.

Watch Symphogear
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#266392: Jan 10th 2019 at 9:59:40 AM

Trump has hired 17 more lawyers to fight against the investigation.

You know, while thousands of regular workers are going without pay. Protecting himself is a more important priority, I guess.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#266393: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:01:51 AM

[up][up][up] I said that gullible, ignorant people are the ultimate flaw in democracy. Therefore, if we want democracy to work, we need to educate and train people to be good voters. One party is currently attempting to do the opposite of that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#266394: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:06:12 AM

@wisewillow: It’s condescending, and you’re likely right that it comes from a lack of education, but that doesn’t make the issue any less real, nor is it a problem with an easy solution.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 10th 2019 at 1:06:44 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#266395: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:06:59 AM

[up][up] None of that was in your original comment. I’m not a mind reader. Thanks for clarifying.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#266396: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:10:18 AM

Can we truly say it's due to ignorance?

The working class of color is probably a group you assume that also doesn't have a lot of higher learning. They managed to not be fooled by the orange, bloated tick and douchbag GOP.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#266397: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:17:22 AM

One can gain knowledge outside of formal education. The uneducated working class have learnt who cares about them the hard way, it’s the uneducated middle class who keep voting for the right wing.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#266398: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:36:15 AM

Looks like Mueller interviewed one of Trump's pollsters 11 months ago, confirming that he is looking into the sharing of polling data to Russia intel assets by Manafort.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/10/politics/robert-mueller-trump-pollster/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#266399: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:38:05 AM

@NoName999 Populism is by its very nature majoritarian, pitting the majority against a minority, so it's unsurprising that it finds little support among people who fall outside of the United States' ethnic majority, since they're the ones Trump uses as his scapegoat. The demagogue that captures the imagination of such demographics will instead echo the more extreme (and rightfully controversial) thought leaders of the Civil Rights era like Kwame Ture and others like him known for their flirtations with black ethno-nationalism and separatism.

Should the post-Trump left fail to deliver on its ambitious promises to unify economic and social justice causes, is quite likely that working class minorities will begin to turn to such radicals; even now membership in what were formerly all but defunct black nationalist groups like the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers has been surging in the past few years.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 10th 2019 at 1:46:29 PM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#266400: Jan 10th 2019 at 10:40:54 AM

Trump’s “Big Beautiful Wall” can be apparently cut through with a household saw.

The Trump administration directed the construction of eight steel and concrete prototype walls that were built in Otay Mesa, California, just across the border from Tijuana, Mexico. Trump inspected the prototypes in March 2018. He has now settled on a steel slat, or steel bollard, design for the proposed border barrier additions. Steel bollard fencing has been used under previous administrations.

However, testing by DHS in late 2017 showed all eight prototypes, including the steel slats, were vulnerable to breaching, according to an internal February 2018 U.S. Customs and Border Protection report.

Photos of the breaches were not included in a redacted version of the CBP report, which was first obtained in a Freedom of Information Act Request by San Diego public broadcaster KPBS.

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 10th 2019 at 1:42:22 PM


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