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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#266326: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:17:43 AM

You shouldn't be. Principles don't mix very well with the practical realities of politics, which is why the "new American left" that emerged in the wake of Donald Trump's victory is going to go down in flames. Contrary to the wishful thinking on the left, empirical evidence indicates that the outcome of left wing populists coming to power is not significantly better than their right wing counterparts. Their ideals are considerably less abhorrent in my eyes, but the fact remains that they're more or less equally corrosive to democratic institutions.

Politics has shown me that extremism in any form never seems to go well.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 10th 2019 at 7:18:22 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266327: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:24:05 AM

The solution to one extreme is rarely the other extreme.

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#266328: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:28:23 AM

You guys do realize that the “extreme” American left is basically a European or Australian moderate, right? Like... we’re the outlier here. A lot of AOC’s ideas, like the 70% marginal tax rate, were mainstream policies in America in the 50s and 60s.

And I’m rather surprised and offended by the suggestion that far-left social justice relating to black civil rights, Native American civil rights, women’s rights, taxation, and social programs are just as bad as white nationalism and xenophobia. Like. The other extreme from white nationalism is reparations, not black activists suggesting the murder and oppression of white people.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 10th 2019 at 9:29:27 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266329: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:30:54 AM

[up]Yeah, that's a problem with that article. It's not really relevant to the current landscape of USA politics.

In other parts of the world, leftwing politics is not really synonymous with civil rights activism at all.

The point of that article though wasn't to bash leftwing politics or even rightwing politics. It was about the dangers of populists in general. Populists aren't good for democracy.

Edited by M84 on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:33:25 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#266330: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:33:53 AM

AOC is essentially a New Dealer and none of her policy proposals are extreme. They're more or less a reversion to the social democracy of the postwar settlement, like a reheated attempt at the Great Society.

When we're casting her as an extremist, we echo right-wing talk show fodder. Let's not do the Devil's work for him.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#266331: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:34:39 AM

Presidential dreams pull Democrats away from key Senate races. Sigh.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266332: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:34:50 AM

The only thing about Ocasio-Cortez that makes me suspicious were her campaign tactics, which were just a little too close to populism for my taste.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#266333: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:38:02 AM

AOC is essentially a New Dealer and none of her policy proposals are extreme. They're more or less a reversion to the social democracy of the postwar settlement, like a reheated attempt at the Great Society.

When we're casting her as an extremist, we echo right-wing talk show fodder. Let's not do the Devil's work for him.

Well said, not to mention that the idea that principles are bad is just ridiculous. There is certainly a place for pragmatism but if you don't stand for anything then what's even the point of being elected? Politics is supposed to be about making a society that better reflects your values, those values need to actually exist for there to be a point to it.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 10th 2019 at 9:38:19 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266334: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:39:12 AM

Which is why despite my misgivings I find Ocasio-Cortez far better than Gabbard. Note that I called Gabbard a "soulless opportunist".

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#266335: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:40:11 AM

[up][up][up] And, speaking for myself, after Sanders I tend to, rightly or wrongly, associate "populism" with "extreme".

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 10th 2019 at 7:40:26 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#266336: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:40:22 AM

[up][up] [up][up]Mind clarifying? I just remember her doing an absurd amount of door knocking and being hard core ignored by local media. Also this thread from a YouTube music reviewer in her district.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 10th 2019 at 9:40:48 AM

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#266337: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:43:04 AM

I mean, AOC has been a lawmaker for a week.

Putting too much faith in her is a bad idea. Hope? Sure. But calling her inexperienced is more than fair and I honestly doubt that some of the things that make her stand out now will survive contact with the enemy.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266338: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:43:05 AM

She's been pretty explicit about being a populist and wanting the Democratic Party to be a populist force.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s Message to the Democratic Party

Her actual policies may be more New Deal, but she's presented herself as anti-establishment and populist.

Edited by M84 on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:44:05 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#266339: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:45:36 AM

I mean, AOC has been a lawmaker for a week.

Putting too much faith in her is a bad idea. Hope? Sure. But calling her inexperienced is more than fair and I honestly doubt that some of the things that make her stand out now will survive contact with the enemy.

Who in this discussion is "putting too much faith in her"?

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#266340: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:47:33 AM

She's been pretty explicit about being a populist and wanting the Democratic Party to be a populist force.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s Message to the Democratic Party

Her actual policies may be more New Deal, but she's presented herself as anti-establishment and populist.

Sure, and that's not inherently bad.

Populism is fundamentally just a set of electoral tactics, sure there are dangers that it can devolve into anti-intellectualism or conspiratorial thinking but if it doesn't then it's not inherently some sign of harmful extremism.

AOC hasn't really been anti-intellectual or demonstrated conspiratorial thinking so her populism isn't necessarily a bad thing.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266341: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:49:26 AM

It's just a warning sign to me. Electing populist leaders — left, right, center, whatever — has often ended poorly.

At least Ocasio-Cortez is "just" a Rep, so the impact she would have, for good or ill, is limited. As things stand now, she's not going to save America or destroy it. We'll see how she does in the next few years.

I mentioned a long time ago in this thread that I generally don't trust populists. That hasn't changed.

Edited by M84 on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:50:48 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#266342: Jan 10th 2019 at 6:59:57 AM

Being a New Deal Democrat kinda means being a populist, the New Deal was popularism and FDR was himself a populist.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266343: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:01:24 AM

With the caveat that it was more or less "Whites-only" populism.

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#266344: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:03:27 AM

Still waiting for someone to explain how AOC is a populist. Not kidding, genuinely asking.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#266345: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:04:06 AM

Yep, the southern democrats held it back a lot, though I do wonder how different things would have been if FDR has caved and agreed to whites only universal healthcare, would we have been able to desegregate it more quickly than winning our current fight for universal healthcare for all?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266346: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:13:14 AM

[up]I have the feeling making POC taxpayers subsidize bigots' healthcare while they don't get jack shit would have eventually led to trouble down the line. A lot of trouble.

And fighting to give them coverage later wouldn't be desegregation since that would imply that this hypothetical New Deal would have granted minorities "separate but equal" coverage of their own.

Edited by M84 on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:15:40 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#266347: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:13:43 AM

[up][up][up] If I understood the post that from earlier correctly, the explanation given was that's how she actively advertised herself, as populist and anti-establishment, regardless of if policies were also populist.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 10th 2019 at 8:16:14 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#266348: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:15:48 AM

I feel like we're stretching the idea of populism here to make it mean whatever we want. The New Deal was not "populist"; it was pragmatic. First, the industrialists of the time were forced to recognize that if they continued stomping all over the working class, they'd be lined up against walls and shot. This is how we got FDR in power to begin with.

Second, the New Deal was widely seen as a minimum set of reforms necessary to stabilize the relationship between the working class and the industrialist class: they could retain their privileged status but would have to guarantee the general populace a basic standard of living.

If FDR had been a "populist", he would have dismantled corporations, or socialized industry, or thrown bankers in jail, or some such. None of that happened. When you think about Democratic politics in the U.S., most of it is straightforward democratic socialism: increasing and equalizing social opportunity, guaranteeing minimum living standards, granting universal access to healthcare and education, etc.

Some people (*cough* Bernie Sanders) are talking about breaking apart the banks, and that is most definitely a populist talking point, but there's no serious attempt to make that happen.

So, to be clear, left-wing populism is:

  • Dismantling private enterprise.
  • Jailing bankers and corporate executives.
  • Going full isolationist and withdrawing our military from the world.

Left-wing populism is not:

  • Raising minimum wages.
  • Providing universal healthcare.
  • Providing universal higher education.
  • Increasing top marginal tax rates.
  • Automatic voter registration.
  • Free IDs issued to all eligible voters.
  • Reversing gerrymandering.
  • Insisting on accountability from the military.
  • Making it easier to become a legal immigrant.
  • Wage equality for women and minorities.
  • Mandatory background checks for gun purchases.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:18:24 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266349: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:17:22 AM

The tricky thing is that populism is more of a rhetorical style. It's generally all about framing yourself as "anti-establishment" and being for the people. Actual meaningful substance optional.

That's the main drawback of populism and why politicians who employ it set me on edge: it's style over substance.

Edited by M84 on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:18:21 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#266350: Jan 10th 2019 at 7:22:06 AM

You guys do realize that the “extreme” American left is basically a European or Australian moderate, right? Like... we’re the outlier here. A lot of AOC’s ideas, like the 70% marginal tax rate, were mainstream policies in America in the 50s and 60s.

It's not the "extremism", it's the populism and the regressive, backwards looking mindset that's the problem. Also, that point about these ideas previously being mainstream previously is completely fallacious; scientific racism and other ideas we'd now regard as abhorrent was mainstream and more or less universally accepted at the turn of the 20th century. They proved to be untenable in the face of scientific scrutiny, and gradually fell out of favor and were abandoned by polite society.

Ultimately, the new left is no more capable of bringing back the golden age of organized labor and social democracy than the alt-right is capable of bringing back their bygone golden age of a segregation and nationalism. The problem with AOC, with Bernie Sanders, with Elizabeth Warren, and the entirety of the new left is that they're promising to revive aspects of past society that died of natural causes rather than adapting to a changing world.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:24:32 AM


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