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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
"That will send a message to America's enemies that it's totally fine to meddle in America's elections, go ahead, we won't actually do anything about it."
Well, it's been done before successfully, on several occasions, to the US, and by the US as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_electoral_intervention
Hear hear.
Edited by Oruka on Jan 5th 2019 at 6:41:37 AM
If their plan is to get the Republicans to turn against Trump over anything up to and including high treason then they're doomed. It won't work. People keep trying to think there's any lengths the Republicans won't go to in order to hang onto their position and they are far less popular than Trump.
Because they are worse and have done worse.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.A President Pence would be much worse, because he is a committed right wing ideologue, and a more competent politician than Trump (I mean in office, not campaigning). Trump is a sideshow circus performance, meant to distract the public from what the Republican party is doing in Congress. But Trump himself seems to have slipped the leash, and is now threatening the economic recovery. Its the old political dilemma: if you think your opponent is hurting his own side, do you take him down or let him go on hurting them? If Trump's mistakes trash the economy and allow the Dems win the White House and/or the Senate, letting him stay there might be worth it.
Anyway, with the Senate in Republican hands, Trump is unimpeacable. At least for now. The investigation could turn up something which might change the equaton...
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.![]()
Republicans still need to win elections and 2018 showed that even with all of the Republicans underhanded tactics the democrats can come far closer to wining safe seats than they had any right to. To use an extreme example, if Trump was literally caught red-handed murdering someone there is no way in hell the majority of the GOP wouldn't immediately throw Trump under the bus.
So saying that there are no lengths the Republicans wouldn't go to in order to hang onto their position ignores the fact that dumping Trump and blaming all of their own wrongs on him is a length they can go to (and in fact will absolutely go to the second Trump is no longer politically useful for them, be that in 1 year, 2, or 20).
To use a clumsy metaphor, what is the point of winning control of something back if you let the previous owner burn it down in order for you to get it?
Edited by Shaoken on Jan 6th 2019 at 1:45:49 AM
I'm talking about Trump completely trashing the economy between him keeping the shutdown going and starting trade wars with everyone, combined with him alienating all allies and potentially doing something stupid like pulling all US forces out of Asia to play nice with North Korea or something along those lines. All of these things are not things that the next congress can come in and click their fingers and undo. Hence why President Pence is a better choice than Trump, because whilst Pence would be better at getting conservative policies implemented he's less likely to wreck the place in the progress.
Trump is already caught redheaded with collusion in Russia, is associated with the Epstein pedophile ring, is massively engaged in tax fraud among other crimes, has been accused of by over a dozen women of rape (including his ex-wife), and probably murdered his Taj Mahal business partners with the help of the mob that he is heavily involved in, along with accepting bribes from various dictators as well as money laundering.
Its the Tyson Zone. Is there anything other than walking up to someone in Time Square and shooting a man in the face that will get a condemnation let alone impeachment?
He's already torpedoing two wars and the American economy. Where is the magic line the GOP is supposed to wise up? He's why they lost the House and they're as loyal as ever.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 5th 2019 at 7:17:03 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Pence also has the advantage that he will peacefully hand power over to a democrat upon loosing an election, Trump won’t.
If Trump looses in 2020 you will likely see the end of continuous peaceful transition of power in the US, he’s not leaving the White House unless he’s dragged out.
Also remember that president Pence would be toothless, he’d face the same issues as Ford did after Nixon, he’s have no political capital and be idntantly weighted down by his choice on if he should pardon his criminal predecessor.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
The line is were those stuff accusing him manifiest in a punishment rather han just anecdote, the acusagion of women? for know are just that(even if they are right), so almost any other crime.
A this point the GOP is more "do we REALLY know if he murder and rape those people? I mean I need to see with my own eyes".
T Hye will ditch him the moment what he does manifiest in something to them, no moment after.
Edited by unknowing on Jan 5th 2019 at 11:22:04 AM
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"As we see with Kavanuagh they won't ditch him until he's convicted and will fight tooth and nail for him.
Again, growing up in the Reddest State in the Union, I don't think people understand there is no Pragmatic Villainy at work here. The Republicans are fully aware of the Prisoners Dilemma and have hitched themselves to Trump completely.
No one has taught them the Rule of Two's point is to overthrow your master.
I mean for fuck sake....Roy Moore.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 5th 2019 at 7:24:03 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.It also needs to be said that whoever is President after Trump is going to have to dedicate the first few months (at the very least) of their presidency to cleaning up the mess Trump's made. That's a job I'd rather have Pence do than a Democratic President, who I'd want to see spending that time actually being President. And between the time clean-up time and campaigning time, Pence wouldn't be left with a an enormous amount of opportunity to actually cause harm, especially given that he'd still be working against a hostile congress.
@Shaoken: I would prefer that the US economy not enter a downturn, not least because I would likely be hurt by it. But lets be really frank: Trump is not the great threat to economic justice for the 99- the Koch brothers and their American oligarch club is, because they have the resources, the organization and the expertise to pursue an unraveling of the New Deal, which they have been pursuing, more or less sucessfully, since the 1970's. The result has been widening wealth disparity, a weakening of civil rights, and global warming. If we have to endure a short recession to reverse all that, I'll endure it.
And a Democratic Congress and/or President can absolutely fix it, but reestablishing trade relations with our allies, directing the Justice Dept to fully prosecute hate crimes, and getting the US back into the Paris Accords.
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.I wont see pence cleaing anything but being a lame duck president and maybe trying to engaging in his own fuck up shit.
"No one has taught them the Rule of Two's point is to overthrow your master.
"
Funny thing is as yesterday I read the bookf of the sith a rule is "the sith order is more important than you", look the republican miss that part.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"I think it helps to know that I view the Republican party as a Scam Religion. The point is that they have no actual ideology. Not before Trump and not after Trump when they ditched everything to serve him. The whole point of the GOP is to bilk corporations out of as much money as they can so that they live lives of luxury both during their terms of office and after them with guaranteed positions, presidencis, and perks.
Trump gave their real masters their tax cuts so they have everything they want from him and will continue to support him because he's helping their corporate overlords AND taking all the heat from them.
They don't want to throw him under the bus because then THEY'RE the targets. He's a great lightning rod.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.The Republicans will never impeach their own man, because that would be showing weakness before the opposition, and that is something the Republican base would never forgive them for. Too inconsistent with the authoritarian alpha-male mentality that drives hardcore Republican voters (marginal Republican voters are another thing). But they might set him up to lose the next primary.
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.Republicans are just going to try and primary Trump come 2020 while also attempting to pull that same bullshit from the anonymous op-ed on the New York Times from a few months back. I'm calling this, if and when Trump gets primaried, Republicans are gonna come out in droves about how they were secretly trying to stave off the worst of Trump's bullshit.
Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
Yeah, that did. What's probably going to happen is the last remnants of the Never Trumper movement in the Republican Party will try to rally around the challenger (be it Romney, Kasich, Flake, or literally anyone else), and fail miserably, probably leaving the Republican Party in the process. Then it's all up to the Democratic Party to save us from 4 more years of this horrid President.
If by some miracle the Challenger wins against Trump (IE, Trump does something that screwed enough Republicans to scare them away, maybe by failing this Wall Shutdown), expect Trump and his most loyal base to leave, potentially forming a new Party in the process, and securing the victory for the Democrat Candidate (like in 1912), and destroying the Reagan Coalition once and for all.
Mitch controls the Republican Party and has pledged personal loyalty to Trump publicly and called for an end to Mueller.
They lost the House because of Trump....which means they've doubled down on Trump loyalty.
Sunk Cost Fallacy.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

@De Marquis
There are two big faults with this line of thinking:
So I will say that yes, Pence would be better by virtue of Trump setting that bar so low.
That would imply that the Republicans could interfere with the investigation. Turtle (I'm just going to use that rather than fuss about spelling his name) can only hold off legislation protecting Muller because he claims there's no risk of Trump shutting it down, and even that has Republican Senators publicly stating that's not good enough. If the Republicans did try to interfere with the investigation, that is actually a crime (obstruction of Justice) which would backfire
So no I don't think there is a backroom understanding, I think it's a case where the Republicans know that they don't have any leg to stand on to try and interfere.
@Charles Phipps
I don't agree that the plan is to wait out the clock. The plan is to investigate everything they can, get all the information they can, until they get something so big and so irrefutable that the Republicans would be forced into either going along with impeachment or face having to defend something bad enough to cost them the next election. Hence Pelosi's comments about how she wouldn't bring about an impeachment for political reasons nor would she avoid an impeachment for political purposes.
Edited by Shaoken on Jan 6th 2019 at 1:26:03 AM