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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
"At this point I'm only asking out of academic curiosity: was the Viet-Cong considered a country during the war? Is (Was?) ISIS a Nation-State? Or are those a matter of recognition as well as on-the-ground territorial control?"
No, no, yes.
"The questions that actually still worry me are, can the President be indicted, can the President pardon himself, will Nancy Pelosi persist in refusing to impeach him, could the Democrats do it if they wanted to, and, in the meantime, what can they do from Congress given his veto power?"
Yes, maybe, probably, partially, make his life hell.
Right now, the Dem leadership thinks of Trump as the gift that gave them the 2018 elections, and is on course to give them 2020 (rightly or wrongly YMMV). The last thing they want to do right now is get rid of him. Cynical, yes, but thats politics.
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.@Oruku: The Viet Cong was not a nation during the time of the war and legally the Vietnam 'War' wasn't a 'true' war from a legal perspective (and it was not a declared war either). Same goes for ISIS and the like.
The Confederacy was not considered a true nation by the Union and the war against it was undeclared. The legal stance of the United States government was and is, basically, there never was a CSA, just a bunch of jackasses who refused to understand who's in charge here.
Leviticus 19:34Can he go to jail once his term is done and he's politically outlasted his usefulness? How long is he looking at?
On another topic, somewhat old news, the Sanders Institute is fostering international cooperation between progressives.
This is an interesting development.
Edited by Oruka on Jan 5th 2019 at 4:37:45 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Trump should NOT be impeached. Let him lose in the next election, or win with a lame duck government that will screw him and the GOP over continuously for the next few years.
Impeachment is going to make it look like he was taken down by backroom deals, which will result in a substantial GOP victory. Better not to let that happen.
Besides, it will be immensely satisfying for the Democrats to make him lose fair and square, since he'll be unable to do much more than scream and throw an ineffective temper tantrum as he's hauled away.
I hold the secrets of the machine.![]()
That's a cynical and purely partisan political calculation. If he has committed crimes during his campaign and/or while in office, then he should be impeached, because that's what impeachment proceedings are for. Whether or not it's better for the Democrats, it's better for the office of the presidency and the country as a whole if our political system sends a strong and unambiguous signal that no one, not even the POTUS, is above the law.
Edited by NativeJovian on Jan 5th 2019 at 7:42:16 AM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Impeaching him would embitter each half of the country even deeper than they already are, esp. if, as is likely, the impeachment died in the Senate. Besides, until the Mueller investigation delivers its report, we're just getting ahead of ourselves.
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.Regarding Trump's 2020 chances; the Midwest is where his presidency was born, and its where it will die or survive in round 2. The Democrats won most of the state wide races in the normally swing/blue states that Trump won and needs to win again to win re-election.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.![]()
If it dies in the Senate, impeaching him is indeed a waste of time.
However, one could argue that the ship of embitterment has flied long ago. The GOP have forgone all compromise, and will react with malicious outrage no matter what the dems do. Their feelings are irrelevant. Their minds are already made up. Only stimulating and facilitating the Left vote matters.
What are the Democratic prospects of undoing Gerrymandering and voter suppression, and keeping them undonde in the long term, before the Census? What are the plans for the Census itself?
Rhetorically, Republicans like to pretend they speak for the Real All-American Applepie Basefootball America. What do you mean, everything about that is bullshit?
Edited by Oruka on Jan 5th 2019 at 5:48:25 AM
Quite good, actually. Here in Michigan we just passed a ballot initiative creating a bipartisan commission whose purpose is to redraw voting districts. Similar referendums are being prepared in other states. No one is waiting for the census.
But as for the rest of it, even mainstream republican voters are starting to abandon Trump. His core supporters are outnumbered by marginal voters who are well known for changing their mind.
Edited by DeMarquis on Jan 5th 2019 at 8:52:42 AM
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.Even without control of both chambers of government he can still do a lot of damage. Of all the horrible things he and his administration have done over the past two years how much of that was bills passed by Congress versus Executive Orders and other powers held by the executive branch? Winning one or both houses of congress won't be enough to stop him from doing things anymore than Republicans winning both houses stopped Obama from being able to do things. The only difference being that the latter cared enough about the government to not go crazy with Executive Orders and not threaten to shut down the government for years over a personal vanity project.
Put down the crystal ball, you don't know what Impeachment is going to make things look like because it has not happened yet. If he is impeached then that would mean that the GOP would have to be on board with that, which at this point the most probable cause would be that something is discovered and made public that makes Trump so toxic even the GOP thinks it's not worth supporting him anymore.
Plus as we saw in 2018 Trump Supporters are not Republican Supporters, nor are they a majority to be feared. Trump got less votes than the previous two Republican candidates, and most Republican victories occur when the Democrats don't care enough to turn out and vote.
Just to give you some perspective here, what I'm taking away from this given the Republican control of the Senate at the moment is that you're happy for Trump to stack every open Judicial position with whatever conservative zealot Mc Connel and his posse can put forward, his current cabinet continue to wreck whatever part of the government they're supposed to be overseeing, continue to antagonist, insult and belittle every allied country whilst giving Syria, North Korea and Russia almost everything they could want, keep up the trade war with China and all the economic problems that will bring, all so you can wait for two years so you can enjoy him losing an election.
If he has done something that warrants an impeachment then he should be impeached, otherwise there is no point to the impeachment process existing.
Edited by Shaoken on Jan 6th 2019 at 12:53:34 AM
Trump absolutely SHOULD be impeached. He NEEDS to be impeached. If Trump ISN'T impeached, he goes down in history as a legitimate President who was hounded by false accusations throughout his entire presidency that amounted to nothing. If Trump IS impeached, he goes down in history as the man who frauded the government by colluding with hostile foreign powers.
I'll be damned if my descendants have to read a history book talking about President Trump, who won the election fair and square, was mired by controversy throughout his term, but nothing was found or made of it.
It's about JUSTICE. Trump CANNOT be normalized. He CANNOT be allowed to stand right next to Obama in presidential line-ups. He CANNOT be recognized for all of history as a legitimate President. He NEEDS to be made an example of, that America will not tolerate hostile foreign interference installing an illegitimate President.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 5th 2019 at 6:59:22 AM
You think that historical revisionism WON'T take place with Trump?! It's ALREADY taking place with Bush! Think of all the things Bush was responsible for that the Republicans have tried to pin on Obama. In a hundred years, if Trump isn't impeached, he will be remembered as just another normal President, maybe a particularly bad one, but just a normal President. That will send a message to America's enemies that it's totally fine to meddle in America's elections, go ahead, we won't actually do anything about it.
I believe the Democrats plan is not terribly difficult to figure out. It's honestly so obvious I'm surprised people haven't figured it out by simple Occam's Razor.
The Democrats are probably going to wait out the clock with Mueller.
Then if Trump loses re-election then they'll prosecute Trump afterward.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.The United States official stance on this was essentially, "No, but yes." In that No, as far as Lincoln and the US government was concerned, the Confederacy could not secede and thus did not secede, and was therefore not a separate country. Protagonist was right in saying that Lincoln basically said the war wasn't between the Union and rebel states, but the Union dealing with insurrectionist rebels in those states.
That said, Lincoln took a very broad interpretation of the Constitution's granting him war powers, which he more or less made up as he went along. This caused something of a legal spinaround since if the country wasn't at war, then Lincoln shouldn't be able to invoke war powers.
Eventually the Supreme Court said that this was a special case and, official declaration or not, if the the United States was obviously at war then war powers could be invoked by the president.
Edited by Parable on Jan 5th 2019 at 6:17:49 AM
Andrew Jackson is one example of a Complete Monster that History spoke well enough of for a long time. Reagan was mired in corruption and scandal but was untouched by it. Bill Clinton most certainly did have sexual relations with that woman and lied about it under oath. George W Bush started a war over lies. The list goes on. They got away with their crimes.
Nixon, on the other hand, is remembered for being a crook first and foremost. Because they nailed him.
Was that decision ever overturned?
Edited by Oruka on Jan 5th 2019 at 6:25:09 AM
@Phipps: Which the Republican leadersip realized some time ago. Whats really interesting is that they seem to be going along with it. I wonder if there isnt some sort of backroom understanding along the lines of "you dont impeach, and we wont interfere with the investigation." The real interesting question is what the R Party king makers are planning for the 2019 primaries. Are they going to double down for Trump, or try to throw him under a bus?
Edited by DeMarquis on Jan 5th 2019 at 9:17:56 AM
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.

Just a reminder: That Trump won at all was not some overwhelming victory, it was literally all the stars aligning paired with widespread voter manipulation and repression. The Democrats are currently fighting against the latter, and the votes which Trump has lost are already enough that he won't get the slim majorities which handed him the electoral college again.
The average American voter might be stupid (or at least the ones who fall for Trump are), but the majority is not THAT stupid. Trump will be voted out during the next election.