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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#264901: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:05:13 PM

Trump's ability to cause damage in a legislative sense is still limited by the law and by congress.

He can flail and kick and scream all he wants but if he doesn't have the votes/powers granted by the constitution he's shit out of luck.

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#264902: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:05:22 PM

Famously, a Joint Chief of Staff asked for Nixon's nuclear launch privileges to be taken away before his resignation as he was worried the man's heavy drinking would lead to him to try to start Armageddon.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#264903: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:14:12 PM

[up]On top of that, Kissenger ended up telling the staff to ignore everything Nixon told them to do during nighttime. Including nuking N.Korea. So.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#264904: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:17:22 PM

I will not be going to Florida because of the Shutdown - Staying in the White House! #MAGA

No winter White House for trump? How sad.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#264905: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:25:41 PM

Unbelievable that a President has to stay in the President's dwelling.

i'm tired, my friend
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#264906: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:30:38 PM

On top of that, Kissenger ended up telling the staff to ignore everything Nixon told them to do during nighttime. Including nuking N.Korea. So.

Yeah, (somewhat) thankfully there is precedent for personnel to ignore the orders of unstable Presidents.

That's a major part of why I'm not excessively worried about Trump doing something rash when he nears the end of his term.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 22nd 2018 at 8:31:17 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#264907: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:34:24 PM

The one problem is that Trump has more ability to do damage than Nixon did, Nixon’s ramblings were heard only by the Whote House staff, he couldn’t drunkenly tweet out an order to nuke North Korea.

Trump can tweet out such an order, and while it might not be followed it is liable to get a reaction out of his intended target.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#264908: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:48:04 PM

The only reason Trump doesn't drunkenly tweet orders to nuke whatever country he currently has beef with (being honest, it would probably be an official US ally like Britain, France, or Germany since he clearly loves and idolizes the dictators in charge of North Korea, China, and Russia) is because he doesn't drink alcohol.

...god, I feel dirty even saying that, since he STOLE MY GODDAMN LINE a bit ago when he joked that him not drinking is his only redeeming quality. Fuck him, Trump ruins everything.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#264909: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:09:05 PM

Trump ordered Assad to be killed and the Pentagon ignored it. Which, honestly, I'm not sure who I disrespect more for that.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#264910: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:22:28 PM

Trump ordered Assad to be killed and the Pentagon ignored it. Which, honestly, I'm not sure who I disrespect more for that.

Trump.

I totally get wanting Assad dead for moral reasons, but the Pentagon is not in the business of morality. They're professionals and thus cannot afford to allow such destabilizing acts to go through just because some ignorant moron demanded it.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 22nd 2018 at 9:22:42 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#264911: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:32:10 PM

Except, of course, the Pentagon is not in the business of making policy. It is in fact even worse than Trump to subvert the orders of the civilian government for military "wisdom." Their policy of destabilizing Syria also makes no sense since we're supporting people trying to overthrow Assad.

The entire point of the war is both the overthrow of Assad and destruction of ISIS.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#264912: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:44:50 PM

Trump ordered Assad killed in a fit of rage with no consideration for the relative blowback, the risks posed by such an attack (Assad isn’t easy to kill) or the need for a long term plan if Assad’s death was to be anything but the US letting the Russians put someone competent in charge.

The fight in Syria isn’t about stopping Assad personally, it’s about stopping the Assad regime, which is much bigger than him.

Also I’m still not convinced that Trump won’t eventually flip on Assad like he did Kim.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#264913: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:48:39 PM

Except, of course, the Pentagon is not in the business of making policy. It is in fact even worse than Trump to subvert the orders of the civilian government for military "wisdom." Their policy of destabilizing Syria also makes no sense since we're supporting people trying to overthrow Assad.

The entire point of the war is both the overthrow of Assad and destruction of ISIS.

Are you kidding me? Ignoring a horribly destructive order that would cause massive amounts of harm and have a very small chance of being worth it is perfectly justified, the idea that they should've obeyed the pathological brain spasms that are Trump's thoughts is ridiculous.

If that's "subverting the orders of the civilian government" then give me military government, because stratocracy would be better then that insanity.

There is a massive difference between supporting people who could've overthrown Assad vs killing him ourselves, the latter could've had very negative effects on our strategic position and massively destabilized the region. We should not assassinate enemy leaders if we don't have the will to invade and rebuild their country, that's a horrible idea.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 22nd 2018 at 9:52:02 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#264914: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:51:27 PM

Trump's exact words were, "Let’s fucking kill him! Let’s go in. Let’s kill the fucking lot of them,” Not exactly an order.

And it was Mattis that ignored this outburst. The Secretary of Defense is part of the civilian government, his former position as a general notwithstanding.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#264915: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:57:21 PM

Yeah that’s not an order, that’s a rant that should be ignored.

Honestly I’d kinda hope they’d ignore an order that goes “let’s kill the fucking lot of them”, because executing that order would likely be a war crime depending on how one defines “them”.

Edited by Silasw on Dec 22nd 2018 at 2:57:39 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#264916: Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:05:02 PM

"Trump ordered Assad to be killed and the Pentagon ignored it. Which, honestly, I'm not sure who I disrespect more for that."

The only answer here ought to be "Trump." Firstly, he was having one of his episodes and was ranting. He ordered nothing, and Mattis was wise to ignore him.

Secondly, let's say we kill Assad. Who would we support to replace him? That's a thorny consideration even with a well-laid out plan, but that isn't the case here. You're framing it as though the Pentagon is undermining good policy. It's not. It's mitigating and course-correcting from the whims of our idiotic president.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Dec 22nd 2018 at 10:23:16 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#264917: Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:25:47 PM

Again, the point is the fact we're not killing Assad in a time of peace. We are financing and supporting (as well as fighting with to be frank) the rebels which are against him.

It is a state of war.

What kind of sick people do that with no intention of actually following through? That gets literally tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of people, killed for reasons that do nothing to advance peace in the region.

I don't think it's necessarily a GOOD idea to kill Assad but the strategy of, "supporting Side 1# because Russia is supporting Side 2# and Side 3# is ISIS" is a policy of banal evil in its complete lack of ending or victory strategy.

YMMV.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#264918: Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:27:56 PM

Are you really saying the military should always follow orders no matter how idiotic and awful?

Disgusted, but not surprised
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#264919: Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:31:32 PM

[up][up]That may have been true in, say, 2013, but after ISIS, the board's been pretty thoroughly rearranged. Firstly, the "anti-Assad" faction these days are mostly jihadists or rogue generals that don't have enough cumulative support to control the country. Secondly, this is a proxy conflict, and is as much about checking Iranian and Russian thrusts in the area as it is about opposing Assad. Third, ISIS is and remains by far the most potent anti-American threat there, and simply killing Assad leaves a power vacuum they can exploit.

I'm sorry, but your analysis, such as it is, lacks nuance.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Dec 22nd 2018 at 10:31:47 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#264920: Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:35:36 PM

Are you really saying the military should always follow orders no matter how idiotic and awful?

I think historically that the military have often used the "civilian governments are corrupt and ineffective" as an excuse to take power.

It very rarely works out.

Their undermining of democracy almost always starts with the idea they can be trusted better to be more honorable.

Sometimes the public even believes it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#264921: Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:47:25 PM

While a truism, it doesnt answer the question of whether or not you think the military should have killed Assad or not.

And to reiterate, it was the Sed Def, not the Pentagon, who countermanded the order.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#264922: Dec 22nd 2018 at 9:18:56 PM

Mystery firm takes Mueller-linked subpoena fight to Supreme Court:

A foreign-government-owned company that appears to be locked in a subpoena fight with Special Counsel Robert Mueller is taking the battle to the Supreme Court.

The unidentified firm presented an application Saturday to Chief Justice John Roberts asking for a stay of a federal appeals court ruling earlier this week turning down the company’s effort to block a grand jury subpoena for records.

The identity of the firm and the foreign country at issue remain closely guarded secrets, but POLITICO first reported earlier this year that the dispute appeared to involve Mueller’s prosecutors. A POLITICO reporter was in the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals clerk’s office in October when a person connected to the appeal arrived to request a copy of the special counsel’s latest filing in the case.

When the case was argued at the D.C. Circuit last week, the courtroom was closed to the public. Court personnel went to unusual lengths to preserve the secrecy, ordering journalists to leave the floor where lawyers were presenting their positions.

The public docket in the appeal offers only bare-bones information about the dispute, containing no identification of the parties or their lawyers. However, on Tuesday, the panel considering the appeal filed a three-page order revealing that the witness fighting the subpoena is a corporation owned by a foreign state.

Wonder which country that could possibly be?

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#264923: Dec 23rd 2018 at 4:07:42 AM

Also, on top of the 'we're not actually fighting Assad's forces anymore,' which has been true since it was revealed how badly the CIA had bungled the initial supply and training of moderate rebels in Syria, there's also the fact that assassinating foreign nationals is illegal under United States Law.

Yes, I'm serious. It was passed by executive order in 1976 by Gerald Ford that 'no employee of the United States government is to engage in conspiracy to, or attempts to, assassinate foreign nationals'. Trump was literally giving an illegal order, and the military acted accordingly by firmly but politely ignoring an order that was not Trump's to give.

Now, you can argue that having that law in the first place is idiotic and limits the scope of options available to the US in the events of an armed conflict, but frankly, I think most of South America note  sleeps much more soundly knowing the CIA can't put bombs in cigars anymore and get away with it scott-free.

Edited by math792d on Dec 23rd 2018 at 1:10:26 PM

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#264924: Dec 23rd 2018 at 4:18:54 AM

Also

It is a state of war.

Given that the last time Congress declared an State of War (you know, legally and formally and shit instead of just going over somewhere and shooting people) was 1942 the 'Its a state of war' argument is about as effective as a wet paper plane.

Wet with gasoline.

And on fire.

Just saying...

Stating an illegal act is okay because the victim is a bad guy is a a damn slippery slope. International Relations and Laws are not things you want to go 'What Would A Crazy Rich Guy in a Bat Costume Do' with...

And, as a German I feel a Soldiers duty to reject Illegal Orders should be sacrosanct. Or else you get down really fast into "I was just following orders" Territory.

Edited by 3of4 on Dec 23rd 2018 at 1:27:36 PM

"You can reply to this Message!"
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#264925: Dec 23rd 2018 at 4:41:43 AM

Do we have any idea of possible candidates for Sec Def? Assuming anyone would be crazy enough to say yes? Or can the Deputy Secretary just hang around forever?

Edited by TerminusEst on Dec 23rd 2018 at 4:42:00 AM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

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