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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#264726: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:57:12 AM

[up]I actually keep quotes like that around for whenever people try to argue that American fascism doesn't exist - which happens way more often that I'd like.

Incidentally, I also have choice quotes for whenever somebody claims the Nazis were socialists because I keep running into stupid nonsense like that. tongue

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:58:08 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#264727: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:58:26 AM

Democratic primary debates will begin in June. The candidates who qualify for the debates based on polling and "other factors" will then be selected at random for a given night of debating. Given the potential number of candidates, this might mean multiple nights for a single debate.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#264728: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:58:30 AM

Well, so far, that sort of thing isnt spreading. Does anyone here really believe that any influence Trump has, inside the gov or the party, will last one second after he leaves office? His own backers see him as a useful idiot.

Which is not to say that there arent dangerous people out there, but long term we have more to fear from the Koch Bros and their buddies than Trump.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#264729: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:18:25 AM

So...you are trying to tell me that the "Daily Stormer" has nothing to do with "Der Stürmer"? That people who march with this swastika or lesser known Nazi Symbols have nothing to do with the Nazis?

Not that the US doesn't have their own Racist history and imagery - a lot of which coming from The Birth of a Nation - but there is certainly a mix and match going on. This shows how much the German Nazis have influenced the American Alt-right movement though.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#264730: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:22:48 AM

[up]I don't think anyone is saying there aren't American fascists who are Nazis or like referencing Nazi symbolism, but they're the losers.

The American fascists who actually have a chance of being successful (and thus are most dangerous) are the ones like Trump or his ilk who almost entirely immerse themselves in American iconography.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 20th 2018 at 1:23:08 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#264731: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:28:41 AM

[up] That.

American Neo-Nazis exist, but they're not the group that will easily get into power, as they're clinging to a "foreign" ideology. A successful fascist takeover would have to come from a homegrown branch.

Thing is, other fascist groups recognise that as well, which is why they often fall over their own feet to support "genuine" American fascists - which ends up making everyone else aware of what these American fascists are up to.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:30:51 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#264732: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:30:52 AM

[up][up] Iconography, yes, but the talking points tend to be right out of Goebbels playbook. Starting with his lies. He takes Goebbels technic of lies to the next level, in that Goebbels "narrative" wasn't really challenged, and Goebbels did his best to supress every source which would. Trump doesn't even bother.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 20th 2018 at 10:31:02 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#264733: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:31:54 AM

All Nazis are fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis.

Edited by sgamer82 on Dec 20th 2018 at 11:32:11 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#264734: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:36:01 AM

[up][up]This is like saying that the Nazis used tanks and we use tanks, therefore, we're Nazis, it's hard to use effective propaganda and not at least somewhat resemble Goebbels. The man was good at his job, and being similar to him does not make one have any special connection to Nazism.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#264735: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:37:13 AM

[up][up] Naturally not, but one can't deny the parallels. And while there will never be a perfect match, seeing them is useful because "Bewahret den Anfängen" (pay attention to the beginnings). You know, the moment when people "guard" your ballots is usually the moment when it is too late.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 20th 2018 at 10:37:24 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#264736: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:38:02 AM

[up]Well yeah, Nazis are fascists and thus other fascists will have similarities without being Nazis.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#264737: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:38:44 AM

Even the alt right isnt most nazis as "super duper cheerleader club of hitler did nothing wrong" and it does have to doo a lot with US culture: the idea free speech should be use to said whatever we one, that stuff get by merit and there isnt racism except from the left, the idea the system is good when it serve them but is corrupt when it dosent, I mean look Milo one of the earlier proponent of alt right is a gay man of all things(and one who kept saying he date a black men).

Which of course it not surprise to anyone, Sartori in Ur faccism said how Musolini pass from being a hardliner Atheist and anti theist to a "Man of providence" who sign accords with the vatican at the drop of a hat, Faccism dosent have a ideolog more than it have rethoric, olenty of it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#264738: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:38:48 AM

[up][up][up] As an interesting aside, there's actually a field outside fascism where Goebbels' methods have been studied and employed:

Marketing.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:39:05 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#264739: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:42:12 AM

So apparently Trump made a claim as if ISIS had been completely defeated, justifying the decision regarding the troop pull out from the Middle East.

Lo and behold, didn't take him even a day to walk back the claim. He also tweeted that Russia's not very happy about that decision of the US - only for Putin to call it "right". Some Republicans have given Trump flak over this, but we all know that these are empty gestures.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#264740: Dec 20th 2018 at 10:52:08 AM

Looks like Fox News got through to Trump. He's now saying he'll veto the spending bill.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#264741: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:02:21 AM

Except that there is a concerted effort specifically from US right-winger to change the narrative around the holocaust. The "Nazis were Socialists" thing is one of them, but they are also masters of false equivalents to play down what happened back then.

Look, I don't insist on this because I particularly want the connection or because I think that the US wouldn't come up on similar ideas on its own. It can, it clearly has, and as I pointed out, you can't have a 1 to 1 equivalent with the original Nazis anyway. But one shouldn't underestimate the effect of the cross-pollution there - especially since those ideas which are spread don't exactly stay in the US either. We just recently had a British MP made this claim about the "Socialist" aspect of the party in the European parliament towards the German party which represented the actual Social Democrats, and paid the price for it back in the day.

Those thoughts are toxic, and acting as if there isn't a connection won't help anyone.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 20th 2018 at 11:04:39 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#264742: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:04:00 AM

Hitler was somewhat inspired by Jim Crow, so it’s a very nasty two-way cross-pollination.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#264743: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:14:28 AM

And if memory serves, some white supremacists and "scientific" racists postbellum took inspiration from Nazi race theoreticians such as this one.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#264744: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:20:45 AM

There is also Schönerer....

Point is, none of those movements exist in a vacuum, and there are no clear lines between them. Trump might hug an American flag instead of flashing a swastika, but that is only a cosmetic difference.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#264745: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:22:10 AM

Someone should challenge Trump to just pay the five million dollars for the wall out of his own pocket, and then go to Mexico for reimbursement. He has the money, or so he claims.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#264746: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:32:42 AM

The whole thing about the wall that never made sense to me was the whole idea that we'd somehow get Mexico to pay for it. Like, what? How does any adult human being genuinely believe such dire nonsense

New Survey coming this weekend!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#264747: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:40:35 AM

I think the train of thought there was less "we'll convince Mexico to pay for it" and more "we'll force Mexico to pay for it".

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#264748: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:45:41 AM

The portion of Trump's fanbase that's invested in trying to translate his nonsense into something slightly more coherent tends to claim that Mexico will pay for it indirectly because Trump's going to reverse the US's trade deficit with Mexico, therefore metaphorically cashing a check by taking back money Mexico's been bamboozling out of the States.

Not that this makes the wall any less funded by US taxpayer money, but I'm pretty sure that's their line of thought.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#264749: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:52:08 AM

So apparently there's now a GoFundMe to finance Trump's wall

What happened to "Mexico will pay for it"? Unless this is an elaborate scam to take money from Trump supporters.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:53:44 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#264750: Dec 20th 2018 at 11:54:56 AM

Also the idea Trump being of a amazing negotiator he would force Mexico to pay for the wall, is more of "US is so good he can make other country do stuff", is the same logic of NATO.

Swan: downplaying the holocaust is part of almost all white supremcist tendecy, and even they are diferent, european downplay the number of victims while US sayid hitler was as socialist, here almost al deniers just said "history is writen by the winner and US did evil thing too"

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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