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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#264701: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:09:09 AM

It’s worth noting that while there are similarities, there are massive differences as well. The chaos of the interwar period and the intense pressure placed on Weimar Germany were critical to the rise of Nazism, and neither have a parallel in the US today.

They should have sent a poet.
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#264702: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:10:38 AM

Hell has frozen over. For the last two days, Fox and Friends has criticized Trump. Think he'll trash them on Twitter?

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#264703: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:15:32 AM

Over what?

So far I see Military chestbumping, trying to push The Wall off Budget and onto Infrastructure Laws and the usual...

Edited by 3of4 on Dec 20th 2018 at 3:23:42 PM

"You can reply to this Message!"
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#264704: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:21:02 AM

[up] Yesterday it was over how he has no leverage on the border wall, and today it was disagreeing with the president that ISIS is defeated. One of the hosts, Brian Kilmeade, also thinks the border isn't more secure under Trump, claiming "It seems like chaos."

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#264705: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:22:20 AM

Fox being critical of not continuing a war does seem to be consistent with their murderboner for brown people and love of US imperialism*

  • As long as the imperialism is being carried out by a Republican.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#264706: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:24:55 AM

I actually agreed with Trump in killing Assad because Russia would not go to war over him. And the stalemate was nothing more than an ongoing humanitarian crisis otherwise.

Since his own military wouldn't obey that assassination order, there's no point in continuing.

Mind you, the cynical part of me assumes this is Trump's payoff to Putin since he couldn't get the sanctions on the RF lifted.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:25:34 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#264707: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:26:10 AM

@boris, that explains the tweets about how him pulling out is totally a smart move and how everyone is not noticing the great things he does in the ME.

"You can reply to this Message!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#264708: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:30:04 AM

Actually, if we really wanted Assad gone, there are any number of factions in country who would do it for us, provided we then support their bid for power. We're just afraid of losing control over the aftermath.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#264709: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:33:58 AM

Deposing an autocratic leader almost never works well, because the power structure that leader has assembled still exists. One of the reasons why Iraq was such a clusterfuck was that we anticipated that there would be political leadership that could fill the vacuum, but Saddam Hussein had done an enormously effective job of destroying all institutions that didn't report directly to him.

"Fixing" Syria would require a sustained and enormously expensive campaign: first to eliminate military opposition, then to take down Assad's government, and then years and years of rebuilding to try to establish some kind of stable governing body, all while Russia and Turkey (and Iran?) poke around trying to shift things in their own favor.

I don't know that I'd trust the most competent Democratic administration with such a task, never mind what we've got. Certainly, Republicans have proven themselves incapable of doing it.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:35:00 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#264710: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:36:07 AM

We could have pulled it off at one time, its probably too late now. But no one in that region will trust us after this.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#264711: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:38:53 AM

History has a large collection of deposed tyrants and aftermaths both good a well as bad. Leaving them in power is almost never the right option. The thing about Saddam is that the United States did just about every possible thing wrong they could have done.

If you feel like there's a scientific experiment that could be done or needs to be to justify such a statement, I point to WW2 Germany.

More or less everything done in Germany and to Germany, the opposite was done in Iraq.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:39:23 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#264712: Dec 20th 2018 at 7:40:59 AM

"also thinks the border isn't more secure under Trump, claiming "It seems like chaos."

Well that can't very well not say the border isn't in chaos. How else can they scare their viewers into voting Republican?

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#264713: Dec 20th 2018 at 7:42:11 AM

[up][up]Germany had an existing infrastructure for democratic government that the Nazis subverted and abjured. They had an elected legislature since like the 1870s, opposition political parties, a welfare state, an industrialized economy, etc. They weren't building a new Germany out of nothing. These types of things take time to happen, and there's no blueprint for their development.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Dec 20th 2018 at 10:49:17 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#264714: Dec 20th 2018 at 7:47:22 AM

[up][up]They could always go back to pointing at "inner cities" (read: black people).

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#264715: Dec 20th 2018 at 7:55:41 AM

About US and Nazism, is not about finding all the 1:1 but whatever Trump does fith the authoritariam spectrum and damn he does.

Trump isnt going to conduct a large genocidal campain or create death camps but it dosent need it, there a lack of contextualization for what trump is doing.

In term of history one can maybe said the war of terror and crisis 2008 serve as analogue to what happen in germany: a war that was lost(or seen pointless) and a huge economic crisis radicalized huge population into it, what is more you have Obama which was a poit and apart in cuture politic by making clear progresim was here to stay whcih in turn make some people chose the oposite....trump.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#264716: Dec 20th 2018 at 8:03:52 AM

The thing is Trump has basically failed to centralize institutional power underneath him. He's a figure head, with essentially no real power the Reps in Congress or the Fed Court system dosnt let him have. He's a blowhard no one takes seriously, not even his own staff. When he leaves office, he will be shunned, and quickly forgotten. If he strives for authoritarian power, he has failed.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#264717: Dec 20th 2018 at 8:25:04 AM

[up][up] Actually, I wouldn't bet on it. The Nazis weren't unique, you know. And while Trump personally might not order something like this, he totally would allow people who think along those lines do it as long as they cheer for him. What is protecting the US is that so far, at least SOME of its institutions held up - and that at least for some Republicans the notion that Russia manipulated the US election is more difficult to stomach.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#264718: Dec 20th 2018 at 8:25:21 AM

[up][up].... his children’s positions of power, his constant refusal to toe the republican line, and their constant attempts to kiss up to him and pander to his awful base would disagree. The cult of personality alone is a massive problem.

Edited by wisewillow on Dec 20th 2018 at 11:25:46 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#264719: Dec 20th 2018 at 8:31:40 AM

Trump won't be quickly forgotten much as everyone wishes ,the damage he's done will ensure he'll be remembered for a long time yet,

[up][up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:49:41 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#264720: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:00:23 AM

Trump doesn't refuse to toe the Republican line that much, actually. See the judiciary nominations as an example. I suspect that a careful analysis of the relations between Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump some years down the road - or perhaps in the miracle case that the Mueller investigation or some other investigation steps on dodgy deals in that triangle - will show that the first two have had a lot of influence on Trump's executive and judiciary nominations; notice how Elaine Chao ( Secretary of Transportation) is McConnell's wife.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#264721: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:17:54 AM

/"he totally would allow people who think along those lines do it as long as they cheer for him"

Yes and no, in order to carry something like the nazis you need the organizative power of the state and being dedicated toward it, I will said so far what ICE is doing is what trump can do.

And the Marquis is right to a extend, Trump blowhard personality have stop him to make everyone is minions meaning he have more dificult curse to enact is awfull shit, the fact the dems retake the house is a sign of it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#264722: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:19:42 AM

Trump isn't a Nazi, he's an All-American homegrown fascist.

We don't need to rip off Germans to have our own fascists, thank you very much.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#264723: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:20:14 AM

Note also that his 2020 Campaign is subsuming the RNC into itself. So any GO Per who's not kissing the ring is probably gonna get shafted. I'd call that centralized.

"You can reply to this Message!"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#264724: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:46:37 AM

[up][up]

The language and symbols of an authentic American fascism would, of course, have little to do with the original European models. They would have to be as familiar and reassuring to loyal Americans as the language and symbols of the original fascisms were familiar and reassuring to many Italians and Germans, as Orwell suggested. Hitler and Mussolini, after all, had not tried to seem exotic to their fellow citizens. No swastikas in an American fascism, but Stars and Stripes (or Stars and Bars) and Christian crosses. No fascist salute, but mass recitations of the pledge of allegiance. These symbols contain no whiff of fascism in themselves, of course, but an American fascism would transform them into obligatory litmus tests for detecting the internal enemy.
- Richard Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#264725: Dec 20th 2018 at 9:53:26 AM

[up]Quite apropos, and completely right. American fascists who use the symbols of foreign movements were never going to be successful, the only ones who were ever going to be effective are the ones who have no problem appropriating domestic symbols, the ones like Trump.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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