Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
![]()
![]()
The problem is that they’re dying on that hill in vain. Even without Republican opposition that’s just not the way things get done.
It’s not like I’m even opposed to their proposals, I’d just like to do something that’ll actually work.
Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 10th 2018 at 1:35:10 AM
They should have sent a poet.![]()
![]()
![]()
What about throwing out the most radical ideas you can, perhaps even more radical than you're comfortable with, and letting yourself be "talked down" to something "merely" left-wing?
Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Dec 10th 2018 at 4:37:35 AM
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.To be fair, Senate Republicans have sometimes staged surprising surrenders and Trump demonstrably
doesn't know/care about lawmaking...
It's probably also not helpful to immediately adopt the tone of "the left is ludicrous and wanting unicorns! Centrism!" That's a great start to urging adopting policies that appeal to Republicans at the expense of your supporters.
Asking for people to immediately cave without a debate is intellectually incestuous, too.
Edited by RainehDaze on Dec 10th 2018 at 9:40:34 AM
RE: Single-payer "tilting at windmills" - part of it, from my perspective, is about pushing the Overton Window back to the left. If you start with a reasonable compromise, it'll be like that old political cartoon of Obama being told "If you move on this issue, so will I." So he takes a step to the center... only for the GOP figure, sporting the smile of a Smug Snake, to take two steps away.
Some areas, yes - Ocasio-Cortez won on a platform of single-payer, after all. But in other areas? Not so much.
Edited by ironballs16 on Dec 10th 2018 at 4:56:50 AM
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"The American Overton window is to the right.
Re: the healthcare dispute. You don't get anywhere by making mealy-mouthed moderation your initial negotiating position. People that do that get bullied into accepting nothing at all and calling it compromise. Go with Medicare for all, and see how far we can get.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Dec 10th 2018 at 4:58:52 AM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."Going big and working down is essentially the trajectory of any piece of legislation anywhere, at any time. Obamacare was considerably more expansive at its conception and got worn down after dozens of revisions. You get the scraps not because you ask for scraps, but because you demand the whole thing.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."![]()
This.
This is not a negotiation. This is persuasion.
We are not trying to broker a deal, ie. "You give me Single Payer and I'll give you civil rights repeals."
We are trying to argue that doing something is better than doing nothing in front of people who are entirely content with nothing. Ie. "I know you have your reservations about my proposal and, from your perspective, would lose nothing by saying no. BUUUUT let me walk you through why saying yes might not be so terrible after all."
We're not here to trade policies, we're here to convince just enough people that a given proposal is not Satan-Powered Socialist Baby Murder and that they just might stand to gain a little if they help us pass it.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 10th 2018 at 3:09:28 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.So it looks like The Washington Post has created a "bottomless Pinocchio" list for false statements which are repeated at least 20 times
. To total non-surprise Big D not only has 14 entries in that list, he's the only elected official on that list so far.
Meanwhile, this weeks' hypocrite of the month goes to GOP leader who gloated about Benghazi probe wants Dems to refrain from investigating Trump
. Not that he's particularly loyal to his party either, seeing as he sacrif
iced
half of California's Republican congresspeople for his personal advancement.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/10/supreme-court-planned-parenthood-defunding-case-845056
Chief Justice John Roberts and the newest justice, Brett Kavanaugh, joined the court's four liberal jurists in turning away a pair of petitions from Kansas and Louisiana seeking the ban on abortion providers.
I wonder if he wrongly believes he can go down in history as something other than the accused rapist SCJ.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 10th 2018 at 3:54:23 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.![]()
![]()
The fuck? We had a 6-3 decision on a contentious issue?
Errr....? Is this even allowed anymore?
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2018/12/10/day-690/
Day 690: "I have nothing to do with Russia."
1/ An alleged Russian spy appears to have reached a plea deal with federal prosecutors involving accusations that she was working as an agent for the Kremlin in the U.S. Maria Butina is accused of working with a Russian banking official to develop relationships with American politicians through the National Rifle Association in an effort to advance Russian interests. Butina previously pleaded not guilty to conspiracy and acting as an agent of a foreign government, but attorneys and prosecutors filed a request for a "change of plea" hearing since "the parties have resolved this matter." Butina's case was brought by federal prosecutors in D.C. – not by Robert Mueller. (CNN / Washington Post / Wall Street Journal / New York Times)
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/10/politics/maria-butina-plea/index.html
Relevant: The NRA spent $30 million to support Trump in the 2016 election, and the two groups used the same consultants to execute complementary
TV advertising strategies during the campaign. The FBI is also investigating
whether a Russian banker – Alexander Torshin – illegally funneled money to the NRA in order to help Trump win the presidency.
2/ Jerome Corsi sued Mueller, the Justice Department, the National Security Agency, the FBI and the CIA for $350 million, claiming his Fourth Amendment rights were violated, and that Mueller leaked his grand jury testimony and blackmailed him to lie as part of a "legal coup d'etat" against Trump. The conspiracy theorist and Roger Stone associate is asking for $100 million in actual damages and $250 million in punitive damages as compensation for injury to his reputation. The suit also accuses the CIA, FBI, and NSA of placing Corsi under illegal surveillance "at the direction of Mueller and his partisan Democrat, leftist, and ethically and legally conflicted prosecutorial staff." Corsi is suspected of being the go-between for Stone and Wiki Leaks founder Julian Assange. (Politico / NBC News)
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/09/corsi-mueller-lawsuit-klayman-stone-wikileaks-1054204
3/ At least 16 Trump associates interacted with Russian nationals during the campaign and transition period, according to public records and interviews. After taking office, Trump and senior officials repeatedly lied about the campaign's contact with Russians, with Trump at one point claiming: "No. Nobody that I know of. I have nothing to do with Russia. To the best of my knowledge, no person that I deal with does." Hope Hicks, then Trump's spokeswoman, also lied, saying: "It never happened. There was no communication between the campaign and any foreign entity during the campaign." The contacts and communications occurred amidst "sustained efforts by the Russian government to interfere with the U.S. presidential election," according to Mueller's latest filing. The list of associates communicating with Russians includes Paul Manafort, Rick Gates, Michael Flynn, Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, George Papadopoulos, Carter Page, Jeff Sessions, JD Gordon, Roger Stone, Michael Caputo, Erik Prince, Avi Berkowitz, Michael Cohen, Ivanka Trump, and Felix Sater. (CNN / Washington Post)
4/ Trump tweeted there is no "smocking gun" tying his campaign to Russia, misspelling "smoking gun" twice in the same tweet. Trump suggested that the payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen Mc Dougal were not illegal campaign contributions, as federal prosecutors claim, but instead a "simple private transaction" that are only being scrutinized because investigators have not been able to find evidence of collusion between his 2016 campaign and Russia. "No Smocking Gun…No Collusion." (Washington Post)
The incoming chair of the House judiciary committee: Trump is "at the center of a massive fraud" against the American people. Jerrold Nadler said Trump committed impeachable offenses if it is proven that he ordered the illegal payments to Daniels and Mc Dougal to keep quiet about alleged sexual encounters. (The Guardian)
Notables.
Trump told James Mattis to submit a $750 billion defense budget proposal for the 2020 fiscal year. Trump previously called for a reduction in defense spending, but now he appears to have reversed course. Mattis and other top military leaders have been fighting to preserve the current $733 billion proposal, and Trump has called for a top line of $716 billion and even $700 billion as recently as October. (Politico)
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/09/trump-pentagon-defense-spending-budget-1054068
Trump's preferred choice to replace John Kelly turned down the chief of staff role. Nick Ayers currently serves as Pence's chief of staff, and said that he is instead leaving the administration entirely at the end of the year to spend more time with his family in Georgia. Trump didn't appear to have an obvious second choice lined up, but some believe he is eyeing North Carolina Republican Mark Meadows, who serves as the chairman of the far-right House Freedom Caucus. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is also under consideration. (New York Times / The Guardian / Axios / CNBC)
Federal prosecutors in Manhattan have shifted their focus from Michael Cohen's crimes to the role of Trump Organization executives in those crimes. Cohen pleaded guilty in August to campaign finance violations and other crimes and has assisted prosecutors in their investigation. Cohen told prosecutors that the Trump Organization's CFO was involved in discussions about hush money payments made to Stormy Daniels and Karen Mc Dougall, on which prosecutors are now focusing. Now, prosecutors have renewed their requests for documents and other materials related to those payments. (New York Times)
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/09/us/trump-organization-federal-prosecutors.html
The Supreme Court declined to review whether states can cut off public funding for Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers from their Medicaid programs. (Politico / CNN / Washington Post)
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/10/politics/supreme-court-planned-parenthood-abortion/index.html
Jamal Khashoggi's last words: "I can't breathe." The translated transcript notes the sounds of Khashoggi's body being dismembered by a saw. (CNN)
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/09/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-last-words-intl/index.html
Jared Kushner offered Prince Mohammed bin Salman advice about how to weather the storm after Khashoggi was killed, urging the prince to resolve his conflicts around the region and avoid further embarrassments. (New York Times)
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/world/middleeast/saudi-mbs-jared-kushner.html

@Fighteer: Republicans are going to turn it into a straw man regardless of what it is, and the medical industries are likely to equally as uncooperative regardless of plan.
I don’t really see much to be gained by such an approach save for pleasing a certain kind of technocrat.