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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#263451: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:11:39 PM

[up]The question is if we need an agency that is completely and absolutely morally bankrupt.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#263452: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:13:33 PM

[up] I think that's a bit of an unfair generalization, all things considered. But ultimately the answer is yes, we need a foreign intelligence agency.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#263453: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:15:13 PM

The problems of the CIA are the problems of the government behind them. To fix the CIA, you just need to get the people who want to use it to build an American Empire.

And have those people shot as war criminals.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#263454: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:16:37 PM

I'm not sure if I'd say the CIA is absolutely bankrupt, though. I mean, it has abuses, but so do other organizations, and we do need a spy network. And it's hard to say if another spy network wouldn't do the same thing. Espionage in general is not a field where one keeps their hands clean.

Also, it is worth noting that, IIRC, they were critics of Trump at least at first. And if they were replaced now-especially by this administration-that would be bad news. Perhaps this is faint praise, but I do feel confident saying the CIA is a lesser evil to Trump.

Leviticus 19:34
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#263455: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:16:38 PM

[up][up][up]That's completely and absolutely morally bankrupt?

Edited by kkhohoho on Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:16:51 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#263456: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:21:17 PM

[up]That wording seems pretty loaded. Even if the CIA were completely morally bankrupt, is there anything that says it fundamentally has to be that way?

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#263457: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:22:35 PM

[up][up] Protagonist kind of beat me to it but that's not really an accurate statement. I agree that we should not have an agency that's "completely and absolutely morally bankrupt", so it's a good thing we don't.

Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:22:41 AM

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#263458: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:22:52 PM

The CIA has definitely done a lot of shady shit, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the higher-ups would qualify as war criminals or something.

But getting rid of them wholesale? That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's not like in the Winter Soldier movie where the whole spy organization has to go because a secret supervillain society had re-established itself within its ranks from practically its very inception. The problems with the CIA are far more mundane.

Ultimately, what's needed is the political will to actually investigate them and hold them accountable. Kind of like what's starting to happen with the Pentagon and their accounting bullshit.

Edited by M84 on Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:24:12 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#263459: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:24:45 PM

Well you'd have to compare the CIA to other US agencies as well as other foreign intelligence agencies to determine that. The thing to keep in mind is that keeping a nation stable is not a job for The Fettered. We can be idealistic and stick to our values 98% of the time, but only if we stretch them 2% of the time. The CIA in particular works in that 2%.

So the question is, does the CIA do its job as 'cleanly' as similar organizations, and if not-whether replacing it with another organization is the ideal way to fix that problem.

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#263460: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:25:53 PM

The problem of the CIA is Reagan wanted to build an American Empire and ordered them to do it. Then Bush Jr. ordered them to "destroy all people we think could be bad."

And previous Presidents did the same thing.

9/10, when America must choose between "make our bananas cheaper" and "destroy a democracy" you don't have to guess which they choose.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:26:20 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#263461: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:26:50 PM

Yeah, we'd probably need to compare the CIA to Mossad or the FIS.

[up]Then the problem is less the CIA itself and more the fact we picked Presidents who do that.

Edited by M84 on Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:28:09 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#263462: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:28:37 PM

[up][up] I think that's a little bit of a mischaracterization of Reagan's foreign policy. It wasn't anything so grandiose as creating an empire, it was more about counterplaying the Soviets. You could even describe it as more reactive than active in a way.

[up] The CIA does a better job than most foreign intelligence agencies in regards to not being horrible. Mossad is basically one massive hit squad these days.

Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:29:46 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#263463: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:32:11 PM

@M84: That's part of what I was getting at. This administration rebuilding the CIA is something that would actually scare me-they would make something far worse.

If you want the CIA to be better, the #1 thing that really needs to happen is simply better leadership. #2 is better accountability.

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#263464: Dec 3rd 2018 at 6:37:47 PM

There's also a very real question of sometimes who the CIA is working for and what they're meant to be doing. A lot of times they are given incredibly unrealistic orders or tasks then told to do it however they can.

Things like, "Arm an insurrection that overthrows this President but don't spend any money doing it."

No surprise how sometimes they raise money in...unconventional ways. Also, make allies of whoever is on the ground (and who can be the new enemy next week because the policy makers change or want to make an example of them).

The history of CIA failures and weird decisions are amazing truly.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 3rd 2018 at 6:38:47 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#263465: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:05:18 PM

[up] As long as the list of failures is the list of successes. Those are just less publicized.

They should have sent a poet.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#263466: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:14:51 PM

[up] Their successes are frequently things we shouldn't be proud of, though.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Dec 3rd 2018 at 10:15:10 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#263467: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:29:37 PM

Or things we aren't even allowed to see yet. Files from World War II are still being declassified, can you imagine whatever the CIA's also sitting on from the Cold War?

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#263468: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:54:04 PM

Files from World War II are still being declassified
... Why are they still classified even 60+ years after the fact? The only reason I could fathom is that it involves US troops commiting war crimes that are so heinous they could never allow the records to be publicized lest a giant firestorm of a controversy erupt.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#263469: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:00:49 PM

[up] They could also have things such as the identities of agents and assets still in use.

Having said that, I'm partial to think there's a lot of that going on as well. That and covert operations that we really don't want to talk about our involvement in.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#263470: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:06:20 PM

[up] At least part of it is simply bureaucratic inertia as well.

You wouldn’t believe the amount of classified documents that were filed and promptly forgotten about. Declassifying documents is a process, and requires resources, and is often just not a priority.

Edited by megaeliz on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:15:52 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#263471: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:08:39 PM

Also a lot of operational thought and processes get kept around. Things during World War Two may have been done in certain ways that if analysed can give insight into how things are done in a modern context.

Also there’s shit that’s just embarrassing, mistakes that got made that nobody wants to admit to until everyone involved is dead.

Plus countries can hold grudges for a long time, the CIA probably had a bunch of plans for out their situations where half of Latin America joined the Axis, nobody wants to declassify said plans because it makes things awkward.

That’s before we get into diplomatic actions, there’s probably stuff tied to the US assistance with and sign of on actions by the French and British in their colonial empires, it’s just gonna piss people off when it comes out.

As long as the impact of the events is still being felt today stuff will stay classified if possible, we’re very much still feeling the impact of a lot of desicions made during World War Two.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#263472: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:10:49 PM

Declassifying anything also probably means paying some unlucky bastard to read thru years of classified material and check whether it should still remain classified (eg. document from the 60s mentions agent A, now he has to find out whether agent A is still active, etc.).

Edited by nightwyrm_zero on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:11:00 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#263473: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:22:37 PM

Not just if agent A is still active but also if they agreed to never reveal agent A’s name, such an agreement would still be binding and isn’t something they’d want to break.

British intelligence for example will never reveal if you worked for them, even if you admit it yourself, that discretion is part of their reputation and it would hurt them operationally to break it.

Hell based on agreements there may even be agreements between governments about burying some shit forever, agreements that shouldn’t be broken because it diminishes the value of their word.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#263474: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:25:03 PM

Someday I want to know what Sir Christopher Lee got up to during WWII, dammit. British intelligence have no sense of fun.

I’m very leery of ANY agreement that X should be secret/buried forever. The public has a right to know.

Edited by wisewillow on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:25:50 AM

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#263475: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:32:28 PM

The public has a right to know.
Yeah, but what if, upon releasing a particular piece of classified info, the public decides that the information should've stayed classified (e.g. it stirred up too much controversy among the public to the point of personal feuds ruining families and friendships) and thus hate the government for, you know, giving in to their demands?

It's a delicate balance, and also you can't please everyone.

Edited by MarqFJA on Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:33:47 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

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