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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#262851: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:08:13 AM

[up] Depends on how you define "on the rise". It terms of a sudden land-grab, it certainly was. But naturally it was only a matter of time until the system broke down. It might have hold longer, though, if they had left out East Germany out of their landgrab. It made the wall to a symbol of its power which was bond to got tore down eventually.

Anyway, the idea that NATO is a giant threat to Russia is laughable, since the majority of the NATO states don't really have any interest to go to war anywhere, and if the US would just attack Russia, the defence pact of NATO would not apply.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#262852: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:10:22 AM

[up] The US getting into it with Russia is actually one of the only areas where the mutual defense pact would apply. That’s kind of the whole reason for NATO existing, after all, and that war would be fought in those countries backyards.

They should have sent a poet.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#262853: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:18:29 AM

[up] It's not that easy. Triggering article 5 requires some serious sh... going down, which is exactly why it has happened only once in the while history of NATO.

over 70 years and in all this time NATO has moved as one unit in a war only ONCE, and that required an attack on US soil in which hundred of civilians died. And even THAN the NATO states initially disagreed about how the retaliation actually should look like.

So, yeah, the whole concept of NATO being a giant threat to Russia is BS. It is only threatening one thing, Russia's abilities to nibble territories out of the Eastern Europe.

And, btw, even if NATO didn't exist, the EU has its own defence agreement, too. Which ironically results in Russia p... off two organisations at once should they decide to attack an EU country (since not all EU states are also NATO members and not all NATO members are EU states).

Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#262854: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:23:07 AM

Russia is not a military threat. Not even close. Their brand of aggression is much more insidious.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#262855: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:25:27 AM

Not to us, the people of Ukraine or Georgia might say different.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#262856: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:27:44 AM

Or the Finns. Or the Baltics. Etc, etc.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#262857: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:28:47 AM

Gettin' a bit sidetracked, I believe...

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#262858: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:31:28 AM

Article 5 would absolutely be triggered by an armed conflict between the US and Russia.

Are we talking about NATO being a threat to Russia politically or militarily? Because NATO is both, and Russia knows it, which is why it’s been acting the way it has.

They should have sent a poet.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#262859: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:36:47 AM

So since next year will see Democrats back in the driving seat of the lower chamber of the US parliament, they have already a bunch of changes to the parliament rules ready:

  • Requiring bill text to be available for a full 72 hours before the bill can go the floor. (There’s a three-day rule now, but it’s enforcement is counted by calendar days between posting the floor vote, not the actual number of hours.)
  • Reinstating the Gephardt rule that provides for the automatic engrossment of a House joint resolution changing the statutory limit when Congress has completed action on a budget resolution.
  • Ending the Holman rule that Republicans reinstated two years ago to allow members to offer amendments to appropriations bills designed to reduce the scope and size of government.
  • Eliminating so-called dynamic scoring, another Republican-used tool that allows the Congressional Budget Office to provide macroeconomic analyses of bills that factor in projected economic growth resulting from the policy.
  • Requiring a three-fifths supermajority to pass legislation that would raise income taxes on the lowest-earning 80 percent of taxpayers.
  • Granting voting rights to delegates of U.S. territories and the District of Columbia.
  • Mandating all committees to hold a members-day hearing so that people who don’t sit on the panel can provide input on its agenda.
  • Creating a diversity office to help offices with hiring qualified candidates from a wide array of backgrounds.
  • Preventing members and staff from serving on corporate boards (a proposal that came up after New York Republican Rep. Chris Collins was indicted for insider trading of information he learned as a board member of Innate Immunotherapeutics).

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#262860: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:36:57 AM

Yeah, a cursory glance at the now mostly defunct Russia thread will show that a number of the Russian tropers see NATO accepting the application of former Warsaw Pact countries as "excessively provocative" and dangerous to Russia's sovereignty and whatnot.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#262861: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:42:37 AM

And yet no NATO country has ever attacked Russia or a country close to Russia - but Russia does it all the time (attacking other countries, they so far haven't dared with NATO or EU states).

So, who it threatening whom there? And now that Trump basically signals that he doesn't care, Russia is testing the waters again in the Ukraine.

Edited by Swanpride on Nov 26th 2018 at 7:43:29 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#262862: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:49:32 AM

[up] Wait, are you seriously implying that NATO isn’t a military threat to Russia because we haven’t attacked them yet? Because that logic is nuts.

Russia knows they couldn’t stand up in a fight with NATO, which is why they rely on half measures, deniable operations and needling.

[down] Well, yeah.

Edited by archonspeaks on Nov 26th 2018 at 7:56:21 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#262863: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:55:12 AM

[up][up][up][up]

  • Requiring a three-fifths supermajority to pass legislation that would raise income taxes on the lowest-earning 80 percent of taxpayers.

This is a stunt for publicity. I'm not impressed.

[up] NATO is a defensive alliance, full stop. It's a threat to Russian sovereignty only if Russia considers its "sovereignty" to extend to the military annexation of its neighbors.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 26th 2018 at 10:56:03 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#262864: Nov 26th 2018 at 7:58:15 AM

[up] And that Russia sees a defensive alliance as a threat - not to mention their former provinces/puppets joining it - says more about Russia than it says about NATO.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#262865: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:05:57 AM

[up][up][up]I'm implying that neither Russia nor any other country in the world has to fear NATO as a whole if they are interested in peace, because NATO doesn't attack unprovoked. We even had this tested out when the US attacked Iraq, because back then they tried to lure the NATO as a whole into joining them and in the end of the day, only a few close allies actually did while powerful NATO members like France and Germany did not.

Now, what the US does on its own is another story. But unless you have territorial ambitions yourself, there is zero reason to fear NATO.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#262866: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:10:07 AM

[up] Russia may have a reason to fear NATO yet then, given their designs on the Baltics and parts of Eastern Europe.

[up][up][up] Based on their actions up until now it seems likely the do feel that way. We’ll have to see how the current situation with Ukraine shakes out.

Edited by archonspeaks on Nov 26th 2018 at 8:11:06 AM

They should have sent a poet.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#262867: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:15:40 AM

Russia may have a reason to fear NATO yet then, given their designs on the Baltics and parts of Eastern Europe.

That's entirely on them, though.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#262868: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:18:30 AM

[up] Yeah, NATO isn’t going out of their way to attack anyone. The above poster seemed to be implying that Russia had nothing to worry about when it comes to NATO though, which isn’t the case either politically or militarily.

They should have sent a poet.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#262869: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:22:51 AM

"Granting voting rights to delegates of U.S. territories and the District of Columbia."

Can they do that?

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#262870: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:28:33 AM

What with the conflict going on at the border, I find myself wondering about the outgoing Mexican administration. Are they trying to contain things and failing, or looking the other way for some political reason?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#262871: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:28:34 AM

In committees including the so-called Committee of the Whole, yes.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#262872: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:31:14 AM

Vladimir Putin has managed to win military gains through methods other than straight up combat. Basically, small groups of Special Forces fuck up shit tremendously and they intimidate who is left politically.

I'd say it was like Dungeons and Dragons logic but that'd be disrespectful to the real life losses.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#262873: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:34:03 AM

[up] We luckily haven’t seen the “little green men” in a while. Direct action with special forces isn’t really their style, they prefer political warfare these days.

They should have sent a poet.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#262875: Nov 26th 2018 at 8:48:08 AM

Yeah the reason we haven’t seen the little green men recently is because the situations they exist to exploit haven’t been occurring recently, if such a situation occurs they will appear.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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