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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#262626: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:58:53 PM

I’m not saying argue with every troll online. I’m saving, if a 9-10 relative is going off, use the techniques posted earlier to oppose them.

Letting a 9-10 have the stage to vent their bile with no resistance doesn’t help anyone.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#262627: Nov 22nd 2018 at 10:04:45 PM

That a 9 or 10 is even being invited (or if they're the host the fact that you're willing to attend their gatherings) is already a bad sign.

It's like the message moderators send if they allow a Neo-Nazi to spout their garbage on the forums with little to no interference.

Though it's at least more understandable at a family holiday gathering since they're, well, family. Now if they're friends...then you gotta ask yourself why you're even still friends with these people in the first place.

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#262628: Nov 22nd 2018 at 10:09:58 PM

Perhaps it’d be more accurate if I’d framed it as arguing with a 7-8 to convince the 4-6. Yeah, 9-10 shouldn’t be at the house. If my dad was actively backing Neo-Nazis or working for the Indiana GOP I wouldn’t be in the same building as him ever again.

Although I didn’t speak to him for several months after he defended the children in cages news story as “well but it’s the parents’ fault” etc.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#262629: Nov 22nd 2018 at 10:13:40 PM

It's all a matter of degree. There's really nothing good that can come out of continuing to associate with truly horrible people.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#262630: Nov 23rd 2018 at 2:36:24 AM

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/02/17/national/japans-interpreters-struggle-to-make-sense-of-trump-speeches/#.W_fXxeJoSUk

Not sure if the link still works for you guys, but this one's an old article on foreign language interpreters translating Trump's rhetoric for overseas media.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#262631: Nov 23rd 2018 at 3:40:43 AM

"Which is why the moment you actually consider them worth debating in public or putting them on the air or giving them a Youtube channel...they've already had a major victory.

"

Yes and now, in part you will eventually to stand your ground argumentaly because nobody will do for you, neither to give the courtersy of interpreting yout points whatever you want to be, also at times someone really need to tell the trolls to back off.

Also not all fox viewers are 9,10 to write them all off like that is lazy.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#262632: Nov 23rd 2018 at 3:58:44 AM

[up]Okay, first of all, that FOX News thing? That was megaeliz. The article itself doesn't mention it. So we're not actually talking about FOX News viewers in general.

Second of all...nobody is saying we shouldn't push back against trolls. The point is that we shouldn't try to engage them in debate as if their points are worth debating. Genocide is not up for debate.

So don't give these people legitimacy by granting them an interview on CNN or something. Don't accept invitations to debate them. Just tell them to GTFO. The same applies to the likes of alt-right trolls. Tell them to GTFO and report them to moderators. If the moderators decide not to do anything in response...well, that says something about them and their forums.

It's not "laziness" to refuse to legitimize Neo-Nazis. It's laziness to refuse to protect your community and audience from them.

Edited by M84 on Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:00:37 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#262633: Nov 23rd 2018 at 4:35:22 AM

Neo-Nazis shouldn't be engaged in debate. They should be engaged in violent combat (like the fine people who punched Richard Spencer on live video twice last year) until they learn to live in fear the same way they want everyone they don't like to live in fear of them (if they can't just kill them, that is).

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#262634: Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:10:26 AM

[up]

They should be engaged in violent combat

Watch it. I may be forgetting the wording but saying stuf like that is mod bait (no offense to the mods).

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#262635: Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:33:56 AM

[up][up] Sadly that’s not always a good option for those of us living in societies with laws.

A second best would be to make their views socially toxic. Make sure they’re ostracized from society and shunned by anyone they might come across, and that’s almost as good as hitting them.

They should have sent a poet.
Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#262636: Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:39:50 AM

[up] I think we're there. I think you guys think neo-nazis are a much bigger threat than they are, which is a few social outcasts living in basements because no one likes Nazis.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#262637: Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:40:27 AM

Far too many people like Nazis these days.

It's been fun.
Deadbeatloser22 MOD from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#262638: Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:48:31 AM

Just because you find a group's politics disgusting does not make it OK to call for violence against them. Knock it off.

Edited by Deadbeatloser22 on Nov 23rd 2018 at 1:48:46 PM

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#262639: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:03:26 AM

@Marq: More to the point, while punching Nazis feels good, it rarely solves anything and is more likely to get the police to protect the Nazis.

If you're not in a situation where violent revolution (as in armed, with guns and death) is called for (I can't speak for Saudi Arabia, but the US is not in such a situation), then it's better to keep a check on being the first dude to throw a punch and use the xkcd method.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#262640: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:06:03 AM

Regards basement dwellers *points at Charlottesville*

People said the same about ours 20 years ago...and now they are in the Bundestag

Nazis are like malignant cancer. You can't ignore them, you can't leave them in place. They spread. And then they kill.

Edited by 3of4 on Nov 23rd 2018 at 3:06:50 PM

"You can reply to this Message!"
Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#262641: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:12:18 AM

[up] Fair enough, I did forget about Charlottesville. They tried to organize again this year, and got told to fuck off, so I think we're making good on that.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#262642: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:31:45 AM

Yeah, but my point is, complacency is the worst move with those scum. The only way to handle them is staying vigilant.

The moment you dismiss them, they fester again.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#262643: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:34:01 AM

[up][up][up]Well, in America, you can't root them out with the law either. Our First Amendment is much less compromising than the European right to free speech. Hence, our best approach is containment.

Edited by Ramidel on Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:34:12 AM

Corvidae It's a bird. from Somewhere Else Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
It's a bird.
#262644: Nov 23rd 2018 at 7:57:27 AM

[up] Maybe it's time to change that a bit then? I'm usually very opposed to free speech restrictions, but I wouldn't mind it if the US would adopt some European-ish bans on defamatory lies and threatening hate speech for example.

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#262645: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:01:42 AM

Changing the US Constitution is a bastard, even outside of hyperpolarized periods like this one.

Altering the 1st would be impossible.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#262646: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:04:09 AM

It would also certainly backfire, or has the potential to. There's no guarantee that restrictions on speech would follow an anti-defamation tack, rather than simply a police state one.

It's one of those moves that could very easily become an "it seemed like a good idea at the time" kind of moment.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Nov 23rd 2018 at 11:06:30 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Corvidae It's a bird. from Somewhere Else Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
It's a bird.
#262647: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:13:34 AM

[up] Hey, that's my argument!

Like I said, I'm not a fan of restrictions either, but even I have limits. If Trump was a Swedish politician he would likely have been brought to court several times over by now, for example.

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#262648: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:18:12 AM

And once again, the counter-argument here is "there is no example of this ever happening in any other first-world country".

The claim that hate speech laws will lead to some totalitarian hellscape is completely unfounded and entirely based on fear, and when your argument against something is based on what might happen instead of what has happened in the past when something similar was done, it's just not a solid argument.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Nov 23rd 2018 at 11:20:30 AM

i'm tired, my friend
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#262649: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:25:42 AM

I think we're there. I think you guys think neo-nazis are a much bigger threat than they are, which is a few social outcasts living in basements because no one likes Nazis.

Friendperson, I'm really starting to think you're one of two things:

1) A white socialist in the vein of a Bernie-Bro, who thinks "identity politics" is getting in the way of whatever your Single-Issue Wonk is. Seeing as to how you think we're ignoring climate change in favor of fighting the tide of white nationalism, this might be the case.

2) The more sinister one is that you're really just trying to cover for white supremacists. Seeing as to how this is the second time you've brought up the "Nazis aren't a big deal" spiel, I'm not even remotely going to rule this out.

The reality is that you have the luxury of saying "Unite the Right 2.0 was a failure, therefore Nazis aren't a problem anymore." Black people, immigrants, LGBT+ people, Muslims, Jews, they do not have these luxuries. They are able to see that the people who want them dead are not going away just because one of their rallies turned out to be nothing. You might be able to repeat this argument even if the news about Cesar Sayoc, Gregory Bush, and Robert Bowers is blaring in your face, but the people who are actually having to put up with this shit don't even need some major news outlet to know that this is not dying down, it's not going away. As I said the first time you brought up this argument, it's already been here longer than you think.

Or would it be more correct to say, longer than you wanted to think?

To quote: "White apathy has been, and still is the biggest roadblock to progress in the US."

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#262650: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:27:07 AM

That's true, but applying a European approach to American political culture is always risky. Repealing the 1st and establishing a case by case basis for free speech isn't guaranteed to bring about totalitarianism, but America is an exceptionally litigious country and it's guaranteed that a suit will be brought to court to curtail those rights. The risk is that a lot of what we take for granted would be constantly under siege. I just don't think I'm willing to risk the concept of free speech in America and take it on faith that a slew of litigation by conservative political action groups wouldn't move American law in a more repressive direction once the First is repealed.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Nov 23rd 2018 at 11:29:37 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

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