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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#262601: Nov 22nd 2018 at 1:40:55 PM

I'm shocked! Shocked!

Well, not that shocked.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#262602: Nov 22nd 2018 at 1:48:10 PM

He couldn't pardon two Turkeys without turning it political <.<

"You can reply to this Message!"
DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#262603: Nov 22nd 2018 at 1:49:53 PM

[up][up][up]

I did say "last two decades", although in the case of the Labour Party they've been bouncing back and forth for a while. Wilson Mark 2 went full monetarist before even Thatcher, hence the cuts and IMF call-in.

Still, I had thought that Blair and Clinton would at least be smart enough to realise that reheated 90s policy doesn't work any more. I am (mildly) disappoint. I know basically nothing about Renzi.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#262604: Nov 22nd 2018 at 2:19:50 PM

[up][up] Did he even pardon any turkeys?

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#262605: Nov 22nd 2018 at 2:46:46 PM

yeah two, and made a joke about the Dems launching an Investigation into it and the Ninth Circuit enjoining it.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#262606: Nov 22nd 2018 at 2:55:59 PM

[up][up][up]With the way the Blairites have been behaving towards Corbyn for the past two years? This is entirely consistent behaviour.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 22nd 2018 at 10:56:47 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#262607: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:01:53 PM

Renzi was for a while premier of Italy and stepped down after a failed and questionable referendum on de-federalizing Italy. It also seems he damaged his left wing party enough that in the later elections populist parties got a coalition government that I shall not comment on for public order and language reasons.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#262608: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:04:45 PM

[up][up][up] I hate him, but that is kind of funny.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#262609: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:13:34 PM

For the record, since we discussed that pastor killed on Sentinel Island New York Times has an exhaustive article about all the issues of Sentinel Island and why India does not approve of people going there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#262610: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:36:01 PM

My only fear is his death might inspire more idiots to journey to island,with armour and guns this time thinking it's a free for all

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#262611: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:59:00 PM

[up]Unlikely to get that far, fortunately. When it comes to gun control, India does not fuck around.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#262612: Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:21:02 PM

[up]The islanders themselves aren't exactly rolling out welcome mats, either.

Seriously, it's pretty clear they don't appreciate any solicitation whatsoever: keep out! They don't care how called to help them you feel you are. Not. Interested.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Nov 22nd 2018 at 12:23:01 PM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#262613: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:21:38 PM

How to talk to Fox News viewers:

  • Understand cognitive dissonance: This is the mechanism that allows people to ignore facts that are inconsistent with their ideology or worldview.
    • Psychologists know how much time and energy
    • go into creating each person’s model of the world. Given that large investment, people are extremely reluctant to change their model. Think of it as a giant exercise in the “sunk cost fallacy.” Our worldview includes our sense of self, ideology and tribal identity. If you bluntly challenge these beliefs, you naturally will encounter fierce resistance.
    • 4 To persuade your crazy Uncle Murray, you shouldn’t try to get him to renounce views he has held his entire life. The more effective approach allows his investment in creating a model to be preserved.
  • Beware of the backfire effect: When a dependable lifelong belief set is confronted by contradictory facts, the result is the so-called backfire effect. Academic research has found that merely presenting facts that challenge our worldview only hardens those positions. Not only are our beliefs not “corrected” by fact checking, but the attempt at “correction actually increases misperceptions.”
    • It is astonishing but true: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your original beliefs only get stronger. Facts may be stubborn things, but minds are even stubborner.
  • Let Socrates help: OK, lecturing doesn’t help. If you want to actually change someone’s mind, follow the script first laid out about 2,400 years ago by Socrates, the founder of Western philosophy.
    • Instead of sermonizing to his students, Socrates led them through a structured argumentative dialogue. He asked them questions, and helped them consider their underlying beliefs and knowledge. The process forced students to think critically about their belief system. It led them to better hypotheses by helping to identify and eliminate those that were weak or problematic.
    • The benefit of this cooperative dialogue is that people are more likely to modify their model of the world when they reach a conclusion on their own. Therein lay the difference. The Socratic method avoids both the backfire effect and cognitive dissonance. When people come to the answers by themselves, even with that assist from Socrates, they can incorporate their new conclusions into their models.
    • The only drawback is that this requires thought, preparation and patience.
  • Emphasize your tribe: Famed psychologist Robert Cialdini, author of the best-selling “Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion,” and all-around expert on persuasion (see our MIB interview here), notes how important it is to emphasize you are of the same tribe. He calls it the Convert Communicator: “I used to believe what you do — I was against ________. But then this happened to me, and it changed my mind.”
Cialdini has found that it is hard to reject somebody who has the same beliefs as you. People are more willing to be open to a person who used to believe as they do, but whose perspective was changed by life events. Cialdini is surprised that the two major parties have not employed this systematically.

Edited by megaeliz on Nov 22nd 2018 at 11:22:19 AM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#262614: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:41:18 PM

Or you can take the easy route and don't. Not if you don't need to.

i'm tired, my friend
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#262615: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:44:01 PM

The problem is, if we don’t challenge our relatives and friends, then nothing changes. It’s not fair, responsible, or effective to ignore that work.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#262616: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:47:54 PM

I hate him, but that is kind of funny.

Agreed.

The problem is, if we don’t challenge our relatives and friends, then nothing changes. It’s not fair, responsible, or effective to ignore that work.

But that's not really how change works, change happens when a critical mass of people are convinced and then it snowballs from there.

But the people who can be convinced in an efficient manner are not Fox News viewers, they're politically unengaged people who are actually willing to listen and be convinced. Fox News viewers and other reactionary fanatics are the exact types of people who opposed segregation ending, and that opposition didn't stop desegregation from succeeding.

So if you want to try to salvage Fox News viewers then more power to you and I respect your dedication and lack of squeamishness, but it's not necessary for change.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 22nd 2018 at 11:48:50 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#262617: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:50:52 PM

Change happens one person at a time. If you can at least minimize the harm in your personal sphere, it is incumbent upon you to do so. I’m gently nudging my centrist relatives leftward, leaving my far-right tolerating Dad behind and doing my best to ensure his views don’t spread.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#262618: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:53:43 PM

And that's great and all, but not all of us have the patience or speaking skills for that sort of thing.

i'm tired, my friend
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#262619: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:54:44 PM

mostly just put it here, in case anyone is stuck in a situation where they have to for some reason.

It’s not worth it with everybody. If we use a 1-10 scale with one being a person that already agrees with you, and 10 being the people who completely disagree with you, It’s not worth it to try to convince the 9s and 10s, since they will never agree with you. The sweet spot the 4-7 group, who aren’t as entrenched in their beliefs.

It doesn’t work on the ones blind to any sort of logic or treason, but I’ve Had some success with the structured argumentative method, where I try to get people to come to the conclusion on their own, and then get them to actually say it out load, even if it contradicts what they thought beforehand.

Edited by megaeliz on Nov 22nd 2018 at 11:57:06 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#262620: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:55:22 PM

Change happens one person at a time. If you can at least minimize the harm in your personal sphere, it is incumbent upon you to do so. I’m gently nudging my centrist relatives leftward, leaving my far-right tolerating Dad behind and doing my best to ensure his views don’t spread.

Ah, but this is exactly what I'm saying.

Change happens when you convince people, and your centrist friends are the perfect types of people to convince. Not far-right Fox News viewers motivated by bigotry and a massive persecution complex.

Honestly, I don't think we're disagreeing at this point.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#262621: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:08:44 PM

I think we’re not quite seeing the same issue- when one carefully challenges the 9 or 10 in the room, it’s for the purpose of swaying the 5-8s. Letting the 9-10s spew their bile unopposed can shift the 5-8s, even if initially they don’t seem comfortable. Convincing the 9-10 isn’t the point.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#262622: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:11:47 PM

I think we’re not quite seeing the same issue- when one carefully challenges the 9 or 10 in the room, it’s for the purpose of swaying the 5-8s. Letting the 9-10s spew their bile unopposed can shift the 5-8s, even if initially they don’t seem comfortable. Convincing the 9-10 isn’t the point.

Ah, you're right. I wasn't seeing it the same way.

In that case, I completely agree.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#262623: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:12:59 PM

But when there isn't anyone nearby but the 9s or 10s, it's usually not worth the effort. If you're trying to play to bystanders, then maybe.

You can't "save" people like this especially when they don't want to be saved. What can you possibly offer them that will be worth letting go of the worldview upon which they have created their entire sense of self?

Edited by M84 on Nov 23rd 2018 at 1:13:45 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#262624: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:16:17 PM

The thing about trying to get to the bystanders, though? The 9s and 10s are doing it as well. And they're not exactly bad at it. In fact, that's why they're always "challenging" people online or on college campuses or whatever. It's basically a cross between a concert and a sermon for them.

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#262625: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:19:42 PM

Which is why the moment you actually consider them worth debating in public or putting them on the air or giving them a Youtube channel...they've already had a major victory.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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