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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#262126: Nov 16th 2018 at 3:56:12 PM

Children Are Innocent is a trope of fiction. No idea why people so carelessly apply it to real life.

A fairly comprehensive LA Times article about the midterm. Interesting tidbits:

  • This is the midterm election with the highest turnout in over a century.
  • The most commonly given rationale by non voters was "they didn’t know enough about the candidates or issues" IMO that's a consequence of the highly personalized politics of 2015 and forward.
  • Trump has a real irk with California and its (have US states genders?) election.
  • Ironically, the congresswoman Mia Love who was called out as a "loser" by Trump is - out of several Republicans- the Republican most likely to win their close House election.
  • Not a lot of people were scared of having their vote suppressed, but "technical" issues were common.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#262127: Nov 16th 2018 at 4:01:19 PM

@Septimus Heap:

To be fair, the Children Are Innocent trope is inspired by real world beliefs that children are innocent. And on the flipside the prevalence of Children Are Innocent causes people to assume it's true in real life. People know better than to believe fiction but when a lot of fiction writers are saying the same thing eventually people start assuming they're on to something.

Personally I'd argue it's a case of judging a book by its cover. Children are cute, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're good. The same thing goes with animals, too. Dogs are not particularly great judges of character in real life, for example.

Leviticus 19:34
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#262128: Nov 16th 2018 at 4:02:42 PM

If nothing else that very innocence is precisely why they can be as big a bastard as any adult.


Reposting here due to page-bottom:

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2018/11/16/day-666/

     Day 666: Decorum 
1/ Trump said he answered Robert Mueller's written questions himself "very easily," but he hasn't submitted them because "you have to always be careful when you answer questions with people that probably have bad intentions." Rudy Giuliani said there are at least two dozen questions that relate to activities and episodes from before Trump's election. Trump spent more than five hours in meeting over three days this week with his attorneys working out written answers for Mueller about alleged collusion between his campaign and Russia during the 2016 presidential election. Despite telling reporters that "the questions were very routinely answered by me," Trump's temper boiled during all three meetings. Seemingly out of nowhere, Trump targeted Mueller on Twitter yesterday, calling the special counsel team "thugs" and the investigation a "witch hunt." (Associated Press / Reuters / CNN / Washington Post / The Guardian)

https://apnews.com/a73ec89d94dc467680874435fcfef2a6

Senate Republicans are urging Trump to quickly nominate a permanent attorney general to end bipartisan concern over the future of the special counsel. The challenge, apparently, is persuading Trump to trust the traditional choices he doesn't have a personal relationship with, like former attorney general Bill Barr or former deputy attorney general Mark Filip. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/16/matthew-whitaker-mueller-senate-republicans-995056

Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker assured Lindsey Graham that he won't end Mueller's investigation, despite previously publicly disparaging the special counsel. (Bloomberg)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-16/whitaker-said-to-tell-graham-that-he-won-t-end-mueller-s-probe

Dick Cheney's former top national security aide has come under scrutiny from Mueller. The special counsel has been looking into the communications and political dealings of John Hannah, the former Cheney adviser who later worked on Trump's State Department transition team, including his interactions with Lebanese-American businessman and fixer George Nader, who brokered meetings between foreign dignitaries and the Trump campaign, as well as Joel Zamel, social media "guru" with deep ties to Israeli intelligence. (Daily Beast)

https://www.thedailybeast.com/top-cheney-aide-in-muellers-sights-as-probe-expands

George Papadopoulos asked a federal judge to keep him out of prison until a constitutional challenge to Mueller's investigation is resolved. The former Trump campaign adviser pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI and is scheduled to serve a 14-day sentence starting on Nov. 26. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/former-trump-campaign-adviser-asks-for-delay-in-imprisonment/2018/11/16/c9d9678c-e9bc-11e8-b8dc-66cca409c180_story.html

2/ The Justice Department inadvertently revealed that it secretly filed criminal charges against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. The disclosure came in an unrelated court filing where prosecutors inadvertently pasted text from a similar court filing into the wrong document. The filing abruptly switched on the second page to discussing someone named "Assange," who had been charged under seal that was the subject of significant publicity, lived abroad, and would need to be extradited. It's unclear what Assange, who's been living in the Ecuadorean Embassy in London since 2012, has been charged with, but the charges likely center around the publication of emails from Democrats during the 2016 presidential campaign, and may involve the Espionage Act, which criminalizes the disclosure of national defense-related information. "The court filing was made in error," said a spokesperson for the U.S. attorney's office in Virginia. "That was not the intended name for this filing." (New York Times / Washington Post / Wall Street Journal / Bloomberg / The Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/nov/16/julian-assange-charged-in-secret-mistake-on-us-court-filing-suggests

3/ A federal judge ruled in favor of CNN and Jim Acosta, ordering the White House to temporarily restore the press credentials that Trump had taken away last week. The suit alleges that CNN and Acosta's First and Fifth Amendment rights were violated by last week's suspension of his press pass. The White House said it would follow the court order and "temporarily reinstate the reporter's hard pass," as well as "develop rules and processes to ensure fair and orderly press conferences in the future." The judge, Timothy J. Kelly of Federal District Court in Washington, ruled that the Trump administration had most likely violated Acosta's due process rights, but declined to weigh in on the First Amendment issues cited by CNN. "We want total freedom of the press," Trump told reporters in the Oval Office. If journalists don't "behave," Trump said, "we'll end up back in court and we'll win." Trump added: "We have to practice decorum." (New York Times / Washington Post / Politico / CNN / The Hill)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/media/cnn-trump-lawsuit-hearing/index.html

Notables.

Florida election officials ordered a hand recount of ballots in the U.S. Senate race between Democratic incumbent Bill Nelson and Governor Rick Scott. A machine count showed the two candidates divided by a margin of less than 0.25 percent. Meanwhile, the race between Republican Ron DeSantis and Tallahassee mayor Andrew Gillum is down to an 0.41 percent lead for DeSantis. (Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-idUSKCN1NK1ZH

Chuck Grassley will move from the Senate Judiciary Committee to the Finance Committee next year. Lindsey Graham is in line to replace him as chairman of the Judiciary. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/16/grassley-finance-committee-996195

Besty DeVos has received around-the-clock security from U.S. Marshals since she was confirmed, which could cost taxpayers $19.8 million through Sept. 2019. Jeff Sessions first approved the protection on Feb. 13, 2017. No other cabinet member receives an armed detail. (NBC News)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-pentagon-audit-idUSKCN1NK2MC

The Pentagon failed its first-ever comprehensive audit. The audit found U.S. Defense Department accounting discrepancies that could take years to resolve. Some 1,200 auditors examined financial accounting on a wide range of spending, including on weapons systems, military personnel, and property. "We failed the audit, but we never expected to pass it," said Deputy Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan. "It was an audit on a $2.7 trillion dollar organization, so the fact that we did the audit is substantial," he added. (Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-pentagon-audit-idUSKCN1NK2MC

North Korea announced a "successful" and "highly significant" test of an "ultramodern tactical weapon." It didn't appear to be a test of a nuclear device or a long-range missile with the potential to target the U.S. (ABC News / Associated Press)

https://apnews.com/957a7ebc55554e32bfb7681f5609b5f8

A Mississippi Senator said she thinks it's a "great idea" to make it harder for "liberal folks" to vote. Last week, Cindy Hyde-Smith "joked" that if she was invited "to a public hanging, I'd be on the front row." She has refused to apologize for her "public lynching" comment, and claims her voter suppression comment was the result of "selectively edit[ing]." (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/11/16/cindy-hyde-smith-its-great-idea-make-it-harder-liberal-folks-vote/

The Supreme Court will hear arguments over whether Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross can be compelled to testify in a case regarding the addition of a citizenship question to the 2020 census. The addition of the question has been challenged in six lawsuits around the country. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/16/supreme-court-will-hear-arguments-concerning-census-citizenship-question/

Another Trump adviser is writing a tell-all book about his time in the White House. The book by Cliff Sims, who joined the West Wing staff on Day One as a special assistant to the president, is set to be published in January. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/16/trump-white-house-cliff-sims-book-996198

Trump offered to nominate Mira Ricardel as ambassador to Estonia after Melania forced the deputy national security adviser out of the White House. Ricardel turned down the posting, but has since been offered nearly a dozen jobs from which to choose. (Bloomberg)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-16/trump-said-to-offer-ousted-aide-ricardel-job-as-envoy-to-estonia

Trump plans to nominate acting EPA Administrator Andrew Wheeler as the permanent head of the environmental agency. Wheeler previously represented coal and energy-industry interests as a lobbyist. (USA Today / New York Times)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/11/16/trumps-epa-president-name-andrew-wheeler-permanent-chief/2026779002/

Trump honored a campaign donor with the Presidential Medal of Freedom – the nation's highest civilian commendation. Miriam Adelson and her husband, Sheldon Adelson, a Las Vegas casino magnate and one of the nation's most powerful Republican donors, gave Trump's presidential campaign $30 million in the final months of the 2016 race. They also donated $100 million to the Republican Party during this past election cycle. (NBC News / New York Times)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-honor-donor-s-wife-presidential-award-n937101

Trump has been asking aides and advisers whether they think Pence is loyal. While Trump hasn't suggested dropping Pence from the 2020 ticket, outside Trump advisers have suggested that Pence may have used up his usefulness. Others believe that asking about Pence's loyalty is a proxy for asking about whether Nick Ayers is trustworthy, who Trump has considered replacing John Kelly with. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/us/politics/mike-pence-trump-administration.html


Also:

"Abrams admits defeat in hard-fought Georgia governor race" - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election/abrams-admits-defeat-in-hard-fought-georgia-governor-race-idUSKCN1NL26T

And on the local side, am article saying that at least 20,000 Idahoans with mental illness will be covered under the new Medicaid expansion, if the Red state's legislators don't get in the way:

"She can’t afford mental health care. Medicaid expansion changes that"

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article221675995.html

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 16th 2018 at 5:17:21 AM

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#262129: Nov 16th 2018 at 4:26:39 PM

Remember, the Kids Are Cruel trope exists for a reason.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#262130: Nov 16th 2018 at 4:26:45 PM

"Trump has a real irk with California and its (have US states genders?) election."

In the olden days it wasn't uncommon to refer to them as the "sister states".

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#262131: Nov 16th 2018 at 4:28:10 PM

Children can totally be as nasty as anyone, but 10 year olds do not possess the cognitive capacity to fully understand the consequences that their actions have for others.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#262132: Nov 16th 2018 at 4:34:07 PM

Honestly, has nobody read Lord of the Flies? Naturally children can be cruel. And we know this. The point is more that for one, children are very vulnerable to the influence their parents inflict on them (meaning usually - not always - a cruel child is the result of a cruel upbringing) and two, we assume that children aren't really able to truly gauge the consequences of their actions. Which they can't btw. It's the red light phenomenon. An adult is able to oversee everything which is going on at the street and can cross it even if there is a red light with little risk because an adult is able to guess the speed of the traffic. But a child might just follow the example of the adult and get hit by a car, because said child doesn't have the same perspective.

That's why it is the job of the adult to keep the children away from certain influences.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#262133: Nov 16th 2018 at 4:50:46 PM

Or take the opportunity as a teaching moment when they do something unacceptable.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#262134: Nov 16th 2018 at 5:34:53 PM

Actually, it's not because of Children Are Innocent, but that it seems quite odd to me that a 10-year-old child, even if indoctrinated by a full-blown racist, would resort to writing a threatening letter to the girl (and using relatively big words like "terrorist") instead of going up to her and verbally insult her or even beat her up. Sounds like too much forethought for a child to put into their actions, IMO.

Edited by MarqFJA on Nov 16th 2018 at 4:35:17 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#262135: Nov 16th 2018 at 5:51:19 PM

[up]Children are capable of putting a surprising amount of forethought and effort into their plans, especially if they think it's funny. Trust me, when I was in fourth grade, we were very naughty in a mean-spirited way (for example, someone tied my chair to my desk in the hopes that I'd trip over the rope - it didn't work, but still).

[up]in general: A 10-year-old doing shit like this is indeed a criminal, but at that age, it's time for Staging an Intervention, not a full disciplinary process, as well as investigating their parents to see if they need to be dealt with and the kid possibly placed in a less toxic environment.

It can be presumed that, whether or not they're acting on specific orders, they're not fully responsible for the toxic ideas in their head. It's not that Children Are Innocent; it's the opposite. Children are not fully equipped to sort right from wrong or good ideas from bad ideas yet.

Edited by Ramidel on Nov 16th 2018 at 4:52:20 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#262136: Nov 16th 2018 at 6:14:27 PM

[up]

in general: A 10-year-old doing shit like this is indeed a criminal, but at that age, it's time for Staging an Intervention, not a full disciplinary process,

Yeah, no. For some kids, maybe all you need is an intervention. Maybe they just don't really know what they're doing, or maybe they're having to deal with shit at home and are taking it out on their classmates. But this isn't always the case. When my brother was 10 years old, he would beat me and insult me every single day, and threatened to kill me if I told our parents about it. He did this until the day he left for college. And he knew exactly what he was doing.

The point is that sometimes a full disciplinary measure is the only one available, because with some kids, they do know what they're doing. And that's sometimes the only way to deal with them. By contrast, my brother never recieved a full disciplinary process despite abusing me every day until I was 16. And on the rare occasions that my parents suspected there was something going on and tried to stage an intervention, it never took. Whereas if they had enacted full displinary measures, then maybe I wouldn't have been so fucking traumatized.

Edited by kkhohoho on Nov 16th 2018 at 8:16:56 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#262137: Nov 16th 2018 at 6:22:33 PM

Actually, come to think of it-what are the procedures for a school if a student is a full-blown bigot? Especially if their parents are, too?

I mean in this specific case outright legal action and child services is on the table, though in a less openly violent situation it'd be a pretty big headache I'd imagine. Expressing Nazi sympathies, for example, is decidedly against the rules of public schools were I'm from...but outside of school it's legal.

I am reminded, though, of a time in middle school where I overheard a teacher lamenting that they couldn't threaten to call parents with one of their students (that they had just kicked out of class for being disruptive), because their parents simply didn't care. I can imagine this sort of thing is a massive pain for schools.

Leviticus 19:34
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#262138: Nov 16th 2018 at 6:30:48 PM

> Actually, come to think of it-what are the procedures for a school if a student is a full-blown bigot?

Counselling usually,later expelling them if they can

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#262139: Nov 16th 2018 at 6:48:33 PM

[up][up][up] And now I wonder if your brother is already in prison for assault or busy abusing his wife...behaviour like this doesn't just stop.

Edited by Swanpride on Nov 16th 2018 at 6:48:46 AM

TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#262140: Nov 16th 2018 at 7:08:39 PM

From Children Are Innocent to Kids Are Cruel to Domestic Abuse - man, this thread took a turn for the dark pretty damn fast.

Then again, seeing the Courts tell the Dotard to reinstate Jim Acosta because he's going to lose the case anyway is Actually Pretty Funny.

I hold the secrets of the machine.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#262141: Nov 16th 2018 at 7:11:43 PM

@Tech Priest 90: To be fair, we started with religious persecution and threatening to murder a child. We brought up Children Are Innocent specifically to denounce it.

Leviticus 19:34
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#262142: Nov 16th 2018 at 7:18:09 PM

I'm a little surprised Enfante Terrible hasn't been discussed, but then again that does seem like a version of Kids Are Cruel that uses the perception of innocence to their advantage.

Going back on topic. DeVos' proposals for sexual misconduct on colleges has victims' advocates worried to say the least.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Nov 16th 2018 at 7:23:16 AM

TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#262143: Nov 16th 2018 at 7:28:32 PM

[up][up] Duly noted. tongue

[up] Given her assaults on the Education System across the States so far, that's about what I expected. It's really saying something about how rock-bottom my expectations are with this Government.

I hold the secrets of the machine.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#262144: Nov 16th 2018 at 7:39:30 PM

[up]x5 He isn't married, nor has he kept on being abusive. After some soul-searching and digging himself out of alcoholism, he had an epiphany and realized what an asshole he was. It's still not something he could stop on his own without help, obviously, so he started seeing a therapist. He's still a Jerkass, but he's actually gotten better, and has said he is sorry for what he did. There's also a pretty good damn chance he had some sort of disorder. And seeing as both me and my other brother have aspergers, it actually doesn't surprise me. It by no means excuses what he did, but it explains a lot.

Still fucked me over for years.

Edited by kkhohoho on Nov 16th 2018 at 9:41:16 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#262145: Nov 16th 2018 at 8:07:39 PM

Amusing recollection about the CA-45, where Katie Porter won the district for the first time ever for the Democrats:

[A highly competitive primary] is a new thing for us. Normally, the local party has to beg to get even one person to run, and doing so is considered a good deed, not a serious effort to win the district. Thanks to Donald Trump, though, it looked like there was a real chance of winning this year, and that brought out the nastiness.

Which highlights two things to me; 1) Trump's vileness put into play districts that would normally have never been seriously considered winnable, and 2) Actually trying produces results.

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#262146: Nov 17th 2018 at 6:11:57 AM

So have Florida and Georgia officially been declared yet? Trump is congratulating DeSantis and Kemp. Is he jumping the gun?

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#262147: Nov 17th 2018 at 6:26:33 AM

Apparently Abrams conceded recently. So there's that. Dunno about Florida.

i'm tired, my friend
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#262148: Nov 17th 2018 at 6:30:37 AM

Everything I've read says it's a foregone conclusion though that the Republicans will win.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#262149: Nov 17th 2018 at 6:34:13 AM

She didn't really concede, but she acknowledged that at this point there isn't more she can do. She will continue her fight, though. Basically she refuses to go silently into the night. She says she doesn't have the luxury to be "dignified" about voter suppression.

She is amazing!

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#262150: Nov 17th 2018 at 6:34:54 AM

Abrams defeat is unfortunate, still, it's heartening to see her going so close and only stopped because of cheating. They couldn't beat us fairly and it shows, hopefully, she or someone else tries again later.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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