TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261801: Nov 14th 2018 at 1:36:46 PM

Honestly, I'm mostly just glad Trump started talking like that a week after the fact, when it's too late to do much of anything about it, rather than on Election Night itself. This way it's empty rhetoric instead of a challenge to democracy.

Savini24 Since: Nov, 2012
#261802: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:14:01 PM

[up] The lateness doesn't stop it from being dangerous rhetoric. Trump is the president, a quarter of the country believes anything he says, and Republicans are seizing on this issue instead of letting it die.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261803: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:20:43 PM

I realize that the discussion on Cortez may likely be over but I recently read an article on Vox that completely changed my perspective on it.

Climate activists to Nancy Pelosi: go big or we won’t go home

The title may be confrontational but it seems the situation is far more nuanced and interesting than I first gave it credit, to the point that I regret my hostile words in regards to Cortez.

Firstly the article covers what the activists actually want. And it wasn't just contrarians whining at the Establishment as the other articles suggested, they have an extremely ambitious plan. Essentially they want to create a super-committee which will consist of Democrats who do not receive any money from fossil fuel interests. The committee will create a "Green New Deal" will fight climate change through doing these things:

1. 100% of national power generation from renewable sources

2. Building a national, energy-efficient, “smart” grid

3. Upgrading every residential and industrial building for state-of-the-art energy efficiency, comfort and safety

4. Decarbonizing the manufacturing, agricultural and other industries

5. Decarbonizing, repairing and improving transportation and other infrastructure

6. Funding massive investment in the drawdown and capture of greenhouse gases

7. Making “green” technology, industry, expertise, products and services a major export of the United States, with the aim of becoming the undisputed international leader in helping other countries transition to completely carbon neutral economies and bringing about a global Green New Deal

They also want the committee to fight against economic inequality through a Jobs guarantee program and Universal Basic Income.

So that's what they wanted, and honestly, I'm incredibly impressed. It's not just bold and ambitious, it's actual substantive and not just reflexive attacks on the Establishment.

And the reason they had actual substantive plans? Because Cortez and her staff heard about it and suggested that the activists draft a plan of action so they could actually have something to rally around.

And Pelosi embraced it and publicly complimented them for their dedication.

I'm happy to say that I was completely wrong, this was not an example of the endless circular firing squads that have dominated our party post-2016. It was a productive exchange that made our party better. Cortez has completely earned back my respect with interest, I'm happy to have been wrong.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 14th 2018 at 5:23:44 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#261804: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:21:23 PM

Do we have a hypocrite of the year award? Mitch McConnell wrote an op-ed calling for bipartisanship

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#261805: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:26:18 PM

[up]I saw that.

I'm convinced Mitch has absolutely no shame in his body whatsoever. He is literally amoral and will do whatever it takes to gain power and excuse his actions, no matter how ridiculous or morally reprehensible it is.

DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#261806: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:40:00 PM

[up]x3

Well, now both the American left and Di EM 25 have written plans that are basically "what I would like to see in Britain, stage one through three" in almost every detail aside from capital controls. Awesome.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#261807: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:42:55 PM

What Draghinazzo said. Trump may be the lightning rod but it's McConnell who is the actual Big Bad in US politics.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#261808: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:49:22 PM

Eeyup.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Imca (Veteran)
#261809: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:50:50 PM

That doesn't change my dim view of them at all, the first point on there demands is literally imposoble unless you count nuclear as a renewable, which it isn't and those types are against any way.

It is nothing but entitlement, with no idea of how things work in reality to act like that...

And there demands to meet more power then physical posible through renewable shows that.

Industrial demand is just too damn high for renewable alone to even scratch, a single steel mill can consume as much as 33% of a gas turbines output, panels and wind can't cover that...

Let alone that electicity can't be stored, and the grid demands a stable supply on that scale.

All renewable can work for small grids in locations with a service based economy, but not on a national scale... we tried after 2011 and people died because of it.

Edited by Imca on Nov 14th 2018 at 2:57:03 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261810: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:55:58 PM

That doesn't change my dim view of them at all, the first point on there demands is literally imposoble unless you count nuclear as a renewable, which it isn't and those types are against any way.

It is nothing but entitlement, with no idea of how things work in reality to act like that...

And there demands to meet more power then physical posible through renewable shows that.

I don't think this is reasonable, having a plan of action to rally around and suggest is not "entitlement" it's part of being reasonable actors who want to actually make things better. Obviously, it may need to be tweaked but all policy is like that.

It's a broad list of objectives, not some finely tuned legislation, if what you're saying is correct then they're going to need to rework it. Which is fine, policy always goes through several iterations.

I don't see any reason to hold a dim view of it, this is the kind of substantive and constructive suggestions that more social democrats should provide.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 14th 2018 at 5:58:18 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#261811: Nov 14th 2018 at 2:58:58 PM

I think we need more evidence than that to say that 100% renewable is impossible. Politically perhaps yes, physically I am not so certain even when including non-electrical power.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Imca (Veteran)
#261812: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:00:08 PM

As I said my nation tried the whole "let's switch our grid off our strongest generators" thing back in 2011 after fukishima, it lasted a bit over a year because it fucking killed people.

Electrical power infistucture is not a joke, nor something you can tweaks after the fact, you need a bulletproof plan going into it... and this is far from that.

Trump is already fucking with the stable operation of the grid, it doesn't need to be attacked from other angles as well.

[up] Humans consume 72% of the energy the earth surface gets from the sun daily, assuming that you managed to do the physicaly impossible and make a 100% effecient covererter, that's 72% if the planets surface dedicated soley to power generation.

I guess your right that that's bit 100% impossible, but turning all the oceans into a giant power plant over there entire surface is a mega engineering project that for all practical purposes is, and would destroy the very environment your trying to protect.

And then did I mention you can't store electricity? Because on a grid scale you cant, batteries don't scale up to power grid scale as much as we try, and we HAVE tried, quite hard.... the most you can do is stabilize output with gravity and water.

Edited by Imca on Nov 14th 2018 at 3:07:45 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#261813: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:00:09 PM

Yeah, I'm with Imca on that first bullet point. That 100% national power generation thing seems more like wishful thinking than a concrete plan. It's the kind of thing you write up when you have the luxury of not needing the logistics to make sense.

I fully agree that we need to move towards clean, renewable energy sources and away from fossil fuels and their ilk, but it's not something that can happen overnight. Demanding a 100% transition right this second is putting the cart before the horse.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 14th 2018 at 4:01:08 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#261814: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:06:20 PM

Not sure if this was posted earlier but we flipped another seat: incumbent Republican Congressman Tom Macarthur is defeated by Democratic challenger Andy Kim.

Imca (Veteran)
#261815: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:09:13 PM

Does this mean we get to draw the maps after the 2020 cencus, or does Senate do that?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261816: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:11:05 PM

As I said my nation tried the whole "let's switch our grid off our strongest generators" thing back in 2011 after fukishima, it lasted a bit over a year because it fucking killed people.

Electrical power infistucture is not a joke, nor something you can tweaks after the fact, you need a bulletproof plan going into it... and this is far from that.

Trump is already fucking with the stable operation of the grid, it doesn't need to be attacked from other angles as well.

You're acting as if it's legislation they intend to pass tomorrow, it's not.

It's a series of objectives of what they want to be accomplished. Their committee would work to draft up the legislation and presumably see what of this is possible.

It's not meant to be an actionable plan and by treating it as such you're majorly missing the point.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 14th 2018 at 6:11:23 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Imca (Veteran)
#261817: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:18:16 PM

No, I am treating it like a faulty objective, much like anti-vaxers.

Neither are legislation on the table for tomorow, but there both bad plans in the first place that will get people killed if pushed foward.

We need to cut down on emissions, much like we need to make sure medicine is safe, but both are pushing for a step too far.

You can't campaign on something, then expect the actual legislation to mellow out, that's exactly what Trumpettes did, and look where that got us.

Edited by Imca on Nov 14th 2018 at 3:20:42 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#261818: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:22:47 PM

[up] Several states have 100 percent renewables goals. If can best be thought of more as getting close to 100 percent as possible.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261819: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:24:16 PM

Reach for the unreachable, and pick up stuff along the way. It's how a lot of innovation gets done.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261820: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:25:33 PM

No, I am treating it like a faulty objective, much like anti-vaxers.

Neither are legislation on the table for tomorow, but there both bad plans in the first place that will get people killed if pushed foward.

We need to cut down on emissions, much like we need to make sure medicine is safe, but both are pushing for a step too far.

You can't campaign on something, then expect the actual legislation to mellow out, that's exactly what Trumpettes did, and look where that got us.

Comparing it to vaccine denialism is just ridiculous and grotesque, it simply isn't comparable.

It seems that your insistence that 100% renewables definitely isn't possible is rather questionable considering that the issue hardly seems settled.

Yes, there is very real reason to treat 100% renewables with skepticism but your reaction is completely disproportionate, to compare them to anti-vaxxers is too far.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 14th 2018 at 6:26:10 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Imca (Veteran)
#261821: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:26:43 PM

[up][up][up]States are slightly different from a national scale, something like say Nevada could posibly hit that (unless I got there economy wrong) where as others like maine have no chance in hell.

The VAST majority of human energy use is in industrial use, specificly metal working... if your state has no metal working in it it is a reasonable goal.

[up][up]That's what Trump did, and now we are here... let's not employ his tactics.

[up]Past the headline the article switches to a decarbonized grid and points out that you need nuclear to make it feasable.

Which is something that would be totally unarguable, renewable backed up by Gen 4 reactors is a robust and sufficient grid, but most of the people pushing for this stuff can only think of Chernoble, and think Fukushima was world ending (we continued to to us 3 of the 5 reactors until just recently, it caused much less damage then headlines paint)

But tl:dr decarbonized grid good, renewable only grid won't work.

Edited by Imca on Nov 14th 2018 at 3:39:10 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261822: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:30:42 PM

That's what Trump did, and now we are here... let's not employ his tactics.

No, Trump lied a bunch and followed normal Republican orthodoxy.

That's not an argument against aiming high and achieving what's feasible.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#261823: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:33:27 PM

Bill to protect Mueller blocked in Senate

So yeah, McConnell refused to allow the bill to be brought to the chamber floor. Apparently he still thinks there is no reason to believe Trump will fire Mueller.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261824: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:34:31 PM

Past the headline the article switches to a decarbonized grid and points out that you need nuclear to make it feasable.

I know what it said, doesn't change the fact that energy experts have said that it's reasonable and realistic.

It's one thing to be skeptical about 100% renewables, that's reasonable. But you are reacting in a frankly unreasonable manner by acting as if they're proposing that we burn the electrical grid.

Which is something that would be totally unarguable, renewable backed up by Gen 4 reactors is a robust and sufficient grid, but most of the people pushing for this stuff can only think of Chernoble, and think Fukushima was world ending (we continued to tin 3 if the 5 reactors until just recently, it caused much less damage then headlines paint)

I completely agree with this, but even if their objective should be treated with skepticism that doesn't make it nearly as bad as you seem to think.

If it's nonviable then it can be removed or moderated in the inevitable revisions for the associated legislation.

Bill to protect Mueller blocked in Senate

So yeah, Mc Connell refused to allow the bill to be brought to the chamber floor. Apparently he still thinks there is no reason to believe Trump will fire Mueller.

It's not that he doesn't think Trump will fire Mueller, he's just a traitor who doesn't care.

Also I don't think this matters, I'm pretty sure the Democratic House could protect Mueller.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 14th 2018 at 6:36:56 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261825: Nov 14th 2018 at 3:36:12 PM

[up][up]Apparently. On the other hand, Flake is threatening to not vote for any judicial nominees until Mc Connel gives the bill the go-ahead.

[up]The question is if they'll get in power soon enough to do it.

Edited by kkhohoho on Nov 14th 2018 at 5:37:24 AM


Total posts: 417,856
Top