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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#259826: Nov 4th 2018 at 4:36:54 PM

[up][up][up] A good example of “too much” Democracy was the Articles of Confederation.

We talked about this in my US History until the Civil War class. Total democracy is great in theory, but it’s not a particularly effective at creating stability or making and enforcing rules and laws for the public good, especially when concerning large and diverse groups of people.

Edited by megaeliz on Nov 4th 2018 at 7:48:43 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#259827: Nov 4th 2018 at 4:42:29 PM

Care to explain how?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#259828: Nov 4th 2018 at 4:43:34 PM

One point in the video that really stuck with me is that breaking the rules, even the rules of the government, isn't inherently a bad thing when those rules are also being broken for bad reasons. It pointed out that a man breaking the law by refusing a marriage license to a gay couple is bad while a man breaking the law by giving a marriage license to a gay couple is good. Sometimes it's okay to break the rules to do good, especially if others are getting away with breaking the rules to do evil.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 4th 2018 at 5:43:47 AM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#259829: Nov 4th 2018 at 4:45:57 PM

[up][up][up]How would you describe anything in the Articles as more democratic?

Everything was more or less left to the discretion of states, so however "democratic" things were mostly depended on how democratic the states were not the central government.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#259830: Nov 4th 2018 at 4:56:11 PM

[up] I’m more talking in a very generalized “classically liberal” type way.

The closest modern ideology, is probably Libertarianism.

Edited by megaeliz on Nov 4th 2018 at 7:58:25 AM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#259831: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:03:50 PM

We absolutely cannot engage in the kinds of cheating and voter suppression that Republicans do.

The video said nothing about voter suppression.

As for "cheating", the video used the supreme court nomination as an example. The republicans refused to vote for Obama's pick, even though that is completely unreasonable. They went as far as to openly claim they didn't care about the whole process, that they would literally block everyone the democrats pick until a republican president came around. In response Obama did nothing. Then when Trump became president and made his own pick, the democrats again did nothing.

The point is that the Democrats inaction actually don't cause any good. It is the "higher road", but it doesn't actually help. It doesn't even "preserve the democratic process" as the Republicans already broke it so thoroughly the concept is a mockery. They now and forever can try the same tactics with the knowledge that their opponents will always bowl to the pressure.

But the Democratic Party *could* have done something. Obama could have tried to force his nominee without the senate. There is apparently a legal argument for that, if the senate refuses to vote. And latter the democrats could have tried to delay themselves Trump nomination. Yeah, that would be "go low", that would be "cheating". But it is not comparable to what the Republicans were doing because the Democracts would actually have a good reason. Republicans were obstructing the system, so the Democrats went over it. And, ultimately, that could have resulted in a more healthy system. The republicans wouldn't try the same shit again, and both parties would have reason to try to actually create laws designed to prevent this situation.

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#259832: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:05:58 PM

[up][up]It's only really more liberal in the sense that under the articles the US had a weak central government while under the constitution the US had a stronger central government.

As far as actually being democratic there is really no argument that can be made that the Articles was more democratic then the Constitution, in fact it was arguably less democratic since there was nothing that voters could directly effect in the articles where in the constitution at least Representatives could be directly elected.

Edited by Mio on Nov 4th 2018 at 8:06:13 AM

TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#259833: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:20:26 PM

A lot of people say here that they shouldn't play dirty games to win power.

Thing is, if your opponents are unwilling to fight fair, you're under no obligation to either. Screw them over every way, rub it in their faces, and use every dirty trick to get what you want and make sure they never get a chance to get back up.

No doubt someone will say that it's a downward spiral from there. To which I'll ask - what choice do you have? Do you sit by and let your values be destroyed? Or do you put a stop to it any possible way you can, even if it means soiling your hands?

There's this odd belief, born out of wishful thinking, that two radically different thought systems can coexist. They can't - never have, never will. Hardliners on both sides will never, ever let that happen.

So it's very much an us versus them argument that America faces today. It has to choose - or it'll be made to. And those tend to be the worst sort of decisions.

The videos posted so far are more than ample proof of precisely this.

I hold the secrets of the machine.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#259834: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:32:01 PM

It's more of a question of whether you want to smash your democracy into bits when there's a very good chance of winning without doing that.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#259835: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:35:50 PM

Thing is, if your opponents are unwilling to fight fair, you're under no obligation to either. Screw them over every way, rub it in their faces, and use every dirty trick to get what you want and make sure they never get a chance to get back up.

I feel like we don't get anywhere in this thread when rhetoric like this pops up because nobody agrees on what it means. One group seems to think it's doubling up on activism while the other is reading it as total disregard for law and democratic norms. Is there any way we can know what exactly these dirty tricks actually are?

I'm all for kicking them in the nuts when they go low, I just what to know how my metaphorical leg metaphorically kicking their metaphorical nuts translates into the nonmetaphorical world.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#259836: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:50:30 PM

••• It's more of a question of whether you want to smash your democracy into bits when there's a very good chance of winning without doing that.

Thing is, Republicans are already doing this. And if we can stop them from doing it more without doing some ourselves, sure, we should go for it, but otherwise...

i'm tired, my friend
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#259837: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:53:57 PM

And latter the democrats could have tried to delay themselves Trump nomination.

How? What could they have done? We’ve been down this road multiple times over the last two years, so far nobody has properly explained how Dems are meant to have used their non-existent power to stop a Republican Party that controls both chambers, the White House, the Supreme Court and multiple state governments.

Obama tried recess appointments and got stopped by Republicans, now there are still multiple other things he could have done but refused to do, but so far every example given is an Obama mistake and not something done since Trump’s victory.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#259838: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:58:16 PM

Thing is, Republicans are already doing this. And if we can stop them from doing it more without doing some ourselves, sure, we should go for it, but otherwise...

Is it necessary to win: that's the important question.

Edited by RainehDaze on Nov 4th 2018 at 1:58:31 PM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#259839: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:58:16 PM

The primary reasons Democrats have seen any success in stalling Trump/the Republicans is because of the latters' own incompetence.

BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#259840: Nov 4th 2018 at 6:30:45 PM

I'm really interested in the Texas Senate race because as of now More people voted early this year in the state than voted period in 2014 and there is a non-zero chance that by the end of Tuesday more people will have voted in Texas than did in 2016. I'm expecting Cruz to win, but I've got my fingers crossed that Wednesday November 7 is the day the GOP wakes up and finds they have lost Texas. I personally expect the trajectory of Texas to much like Virginia in that rather than becoming a competitive state it will rapidly shift from being a noncompetitive red state to a noncompetitive blue state.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259841: Nov 4th 2018 at 6:37:22 PM

I'm really interested in the Texas Senate race because as of now More people voted early this year in the state than voted period in 2014 and there is a non-zero chance that by the end of Tuesday more people will have voted in Texas than did in 2016. I'm expecting Cruz to win, but I've got my fingers crossed that Wednesday November 7 is the day the GOP wakes up and finds they have lost Texas. I personally expect the trajectory of Texas to much like Virginia in that rather than becoming a competitive state it will rapidly shift from being a noncompetitive red state to a noncompetitive blue state.

Not to mention that 421,104 votes were cast by people voting in their first election. And the greatest surge was by Latinos, Independents, and people under 30.

Beto has very better chances than a Democrat in Texas has any right, and it will be very interesting to see what happens in Texas.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#259842: Nov 4th 2018 at 6:49:44 PM

Why the fuck are partisan, elected officials even allowed to oversee elections....

Just another thing that's so strange about the US, along with gerrymandering and elected sheriffs and judges.

Right now, it's almost irrelevant since the people doing the appointing to appointed positions are (you guessed it) Republicans, whose appointees would be selected for partisan loyalty.

When you're dealing with people who have no shame or decency, it doesn't really matter what the mechanisms are - they'll pervert them.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259843: Nov 4th 2018 at 6:52:07 PM

Yes, someone needs to actually arrest the Governor of Georgia as what he's doing is criminal and he needs to be punished with jailtime for it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#259844: Nov 4th 2018 at 7:06:10 PM

The thing is that it shouldn't be surprising that a Democrat can run a course competitive race in Texas, it's a minority majority state with a young population that is increasingly concentrated in urban centers. None of those things are conducive to the GOP.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259845: Nov 4th 2018 at 7:25:27 PM

On another forum I visit a tweet was posted with some rather shocking data, if the source is accurate then this would be massive.

Turnout amongst 18-29 year olds compared to 2014 early voting:

-AZ +186%

-FL +112%

-GA +362%

-MI +155%

-NC +170%

-ND +2475%(!!!)

-NV +409%

-OH +135%

-TN +666%

-TX +477%

-WI +758%

(note: North Dakota apparently has had a 17% decrease in total voters since 2014 so that may explain why it has such an absurd increase)

Beyond being generally amazing I have to say I'm loving that Georgia grin

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 4th 2018 at 10:29:15 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#259846: Nov 4th 2018 at 7:37:30 PM

It's a few days old, but this CNN graph indicates numbers along a similar line.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#259847: Nov 4th 2018 at 7:49:26 PM

[up][up]

-TN +666%

Oh dear.

Edited by kkhohoho on Nov 4th 2018 at 9:50:10 AM

Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#259848: Nov 4th 2018 at 8:02:07 PM

I think that the people who said 'The Democrats shouldn't cheat' or the like in response to that video I posted don't really understand the point of the video.

Because the video's point isn't that the Democrats need to cheat... It's that they should be aware that their refusal to cheat isn't going to make the Republicans (and the Alt Right) stop cheating.

Especially since the cheating in question here isn't breaking the law, but breaking the outdated informal 'best behaviour' rules that everyone followed before.

What the video is saying is that when Republicans make some kind of outrageous demand, the Democrats need to stop trying to 'meet them half-way' out of some kind of, at this point, unhealthy desire to be polite, because the Republicans will never reciprocate.

That when the Republicans and the Alt Right whine about someone on the left being 'uncivil', the Democrats need to stop advocating for respectful discourse and tell them 'fuck civil', because the Republicans will never reciprocate.

That when the Right calls Antifa 'thugs' and accusing them of being responsible for violence actually perpetrated by nazi-flag waving racist shitbags, liberals need to stop calling for everyone to stop being violent and instead rub the Republicans' noses in the fact that the people they're bending over backwards to please have fucking murdered people, because the Republicans will never reciprocate.

In short that liberals need to stop trying to follow social rules that the Republicans and the Alt Right have long since abandoned, in hopes that this will inspire the Republicans to follow those rules again, and stand with the rest of the left in opposing that bullshit instead, because the Republicans will never reciprocate. And they will never return to following those rules as long as they keep winning every fucking conflict against liberals who continue to follow those rules when they do not.

Angry gets shit done.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259849: Nov 4th 2018 at 8:13:43 PM

Basically: noblesse oblige doesn’t work when fighting Otto von Bismarck.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#259850: Nov 4th 2018 at 8:18:33 PM

I don't get the impression trying to hold to convention is for the Republicans though. It's for observers who might not be as well informed as those of us here, and so make decisions based on whether it seems like someone is obviously cheating or not.


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