Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
One point in the video that really stuck with me is that breaking the rules, even the rules of the government, isn't inherently a bad thing when those rules are also being broken for bad reasons. It pointed out that a man breaking the law by refusing a marriage license to a gay couple is bad while a man breaking the law by giving a marriage license to a gay couple is good. Sometimes it's okay to break the rules to do good, especially if others are getting away with breaking the rules to do evil.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 4th 2018 at 5:43:47 AM
The video said nothing about voter suppression.
As for "cheating", the video used the supreme court nomination as an example. The republicans refused to vote for Obama's pick, even though that is completely unreasonable. They went as far as to openly claim they didn't care about the whole process, that they would literally block everyone the democrats pick until a republican president came around. In response Obama did nothing. Then when Trump became president and made his own pick, the democrats again did nothing.
The point is that the Democrats inaction actually don't cause any good. It is the "higher road", but it doesn't actually help. It doesn't even "preserve the democratic process" as the Republicans already broke it so thoroughly the concept is a mockery. They now and forever can try the same tactics with the knowledge that their opponents will always bowl to the pressure.
But the Democratic Party *could* have done something. Obama could have tried to force his nominee without the senate. There is apparently a legal argument for that, if the senate refuses to vote. And latter the democrats could have tried to delay themselves Trump nomination. Yeah, that would be "go low", that would be "cheating". But it is not comparable to what the Republicans were doing because the Democracts would actually have a good reason. Republicans were obstructing the system, so the Democrats went over it. And, ultimately, that could have resulted in a more healthy system. The republicans wouldn't try the same shit again, and both parties would have reason to try to actually create laws designed to prevent this situation.
![]()
It's only really more liberal in the sense that under the articles the US had a weak central government while under the constitution the US had a stronger central government.
As far as actually being democratic there is really no argument that can be made that the Articles was more democratic then the Constitution, in fact it was arguably less democratic since there was nothing that voters could directly effect in the articles where in the constitution at least Representatives could be directly elected.
Edited by Mio on Nov 4th 2018 at 8:06:13 AM
A lot of people say here that they shouldn't play dirty games to win power.
Thing is, if your opponents are unwilling to fight fair, you're under no obligation to either. Screw them over every way, rub it in their faces, and use every dirty trick to get what you want and make sure they never get a chance to get back up.
No doubt someone will say that it's a downward spiral from there. To which I'll ask - what choice do you have? Do you sit by and let your values be destroyed? Or do you put a stop to it any possible way you can, even if it means soiling your hands?
There's this odd belief, born out of wishful thinking, that two radically different thought systems can coexist. They can't - never have, never will. Hardliners on both sides will never, ever let that happen.
So it's very much an us versus them argument that America faces today. It has to choose - or it'll be made to. And those tend to be the worst sort of decisions.
The videos posted so far are more than ample proof of precisely this.
I hold the secrets of the machine.I feel like we don't get anywhere in this thread when rhetoric like this pops up because nobody agrees on what it means. One group seems to think it's doubling up on activism while the other is reading it as total disregard for law and democratic norms. Is there any way we can know what exactly these dirty tricks actually are?
I'm all for kicking them in the nuts when they go low, I just what to know how my metaphorical leg metaphorically kicking their metaphorical nuts translates into the nonmetaphorical world.
Thing is, Republicans are already doing this. And if we can stop them from doing it more without doing some ourselves, sure, we should go for it, but otherwise...
i'm tired, my friendHow? What could they have done? We’ve been down this road multiple times over the last two years, so far nobody has properly explained how Dems are meant to have used their non-existent power to stop a Republican Party that controls both chambers, the White House, the Supreme Court and multiple state governments.
Obama tried recess appointments and got stopped by Republicans, now there are still multiple other things he could have done but refused to do, but so far every example given is an Obama mistake and not something done since Trump’s victory.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranI'm really interested in the Texas Senate race because as of now More people voted early this year in the state than voted period in 2014 and there is a non-zero chance that by the end of Tuesday more people will have voted in Texas than did in 2016. I'm expecting Cruz to win, but I've got my fingers crossed that Wednesday November 7 is the day the GOP wakes up and finds they have lost Texas. I personally expect the trajectory of Texas to much like Virginia in that rather than becoming a competitive state it will rapidly shift from being a noncompetitive red state to a noncompetitive blue state.
Not to mention that 421,104 votes
were cast by people voting in their first election. And the greatest surge was by Latinos, Independents, and people under 30.
Beto has very better chances than a Democrat in Texas has any right, and it will be very interesting to see what happens in Texas.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangJust another thing that's so strange about the US, along with gerrymandering and elected sheriffs and judges.
Right now, it's almost irrelevant since the people doing the appointing to appointed positions are (you guessed it) Republicans, whose appointees would be selected for partisan loyalty.
When you're dealing with people who have no shame or decency, it doesn't really matter what the mechanisms are - they'll pervert them.
On another forum I visit a tweet was posted with some rather shocking data, if the source
is accurate then this would be massive.
Turnout amongst 18-29 year olds compared to 2014 early voting:
-AZ +186%
-FL +112%
-GA +362%
-MI +155%
-NC +170%
-ND +2475%(!!!)
-NV +409%
-OH +135%
-TN +666%
-TX +477%
-WI +758%
(note: North Dakota apparently has had a 17% decrease in total voters since 2014 so that may explain why it has such an absurd increase)
Beyond being generally amazing I have to say I'm loving that Georgia
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 4th 2018 at 10:29:15 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangIt's a few days old, but this CNN graph
indicates numbers along a similar line.
I think that the people who said 'The Democrats shouldn't cheat' or the like in response to that video I posted don't really understand the point of the video.
Because the video's point isn't that the Democrats need to cheat... It's that they should be aware that their refusal to cheat isn't going to make the Republicans (and the Alt Right) stop cheating.
Especially since the cheating in question here isn't breaking the law, but breaking the outdated informal 'best behaviour' rules that everyone followed before.
What the video is saying is that when Republicans make some kind of outrageous demand, the Democrats need to stop trying to 'meet them half-way' out of some kind of, at this point, unhealthy desire to be polite, because the Republicans will never reciprocate.
That when the Republicans and the Alt Right whine about someone on the left being 'uncivil', the Democrats need to stop advocating for respectful discourse and tell them 'fuck civil', because the Republicans will never reciprocate.
That when the Right calls Antifa 'thugs' and accusing them of being responsible for violence actually perpetrated by nazi-flag waving racist shitbags, liberals need to stop calling for everyone to stop being violent and instead rub the Republicans' noses in the fact that the people they're bending over backwards to please have fucking murdered people, because the Republicans will never reciprocate.
In short that liberals need to stop trying to follow social rules that the Republicans and the Alt Right have long since abandoned, in hopes that this will inspire the Republicans to follow those rules again, and stand with the rest of the left in opposing that bullshit instead, because the Republicans will never reciprocate. And they will never return to following those rules as long as they keep winning every fucking conflict against liberals who continue to follow those rules when they do not.
Angry gets shit done.

We talked about this in my US History until the Civil War class. Total democracy is great in theory, but it’s not a particularly effective at creating stability or making and enforcing rules and laws for the public good, especially when concerning large and diverse groups of people.
Edited by megaeliz on Nov 4th 2018 at 7:48:43 AM