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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#259751: Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:09:47 AM

I know we like to shit on libertarians, but I can honestly say I've never had a negative experience with one. I've lived in a few rural areas, so I've run into a few, and they always seem like good people.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#259752: Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:15:33 AM

Russia will escalate regardless of if we retaliate or not.

We can either hurt them back or sit here and do nothing while their attacks get worse and worse.

Those are our only two options.

This. Russia tested the water in 2016 and that worked out phenomenally well for them with next to no blowback. Why wouldn't they do it again when doing it gains them everything and costs them nothing?

Ignoring them and hoping they go away isn't going to work. The only way Russia stops is if we make them stop.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#259753: Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:41:55 AM

What sort of response is going to 'make' them stop?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#259754: Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:45:24 AM

One that makes them think they've made a hostage in Awakening the Sleeping Giant. Though I think the concern is that such a level of response would provoke disaster.

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:45:40 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#259755: Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:47:01 AM

One that indicates that the US is willing to escalate.

The Russian government does what it does because it knows it will face no consequences, it’s the same reason that it will assassinate people in the UK but not in France.

There are mild responses that can work, say the expulsion of all Russian diplomats and the sanctioning of key players in Russian politics, there are direct counter activities that are liable to scare them off (so blowing open a Russian natural gas line) and there are big but non-war escalations that would be a large move but not a declaration of war (dropping missiles on rebels in eastern Ukraine or having the CIA stuff a bunch of grenades though the letterbox At FSB HQ).

None of which would start a war.

Edited by Silasw on Nov 3rd 2018 at 1:48:07 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#259756: Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:51:21 AM

[up] We’ve already tried the expulsion of dipolmats and things like that. While I fully support targeted sanctions on Oligarchs and the Magnitsky Act, I think that needs to be combined with other countermeasures.

Edited by megaeliz on Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:57:31 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#259757: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:12:29 AM

Obama was pretty soft with his diplomatic expulsions, he only expelled the diplomats proven to be engaged in espionage, I’m taking about throwing out every single person at the Russian embassy.

Also one possible escalation is expanding the 1917 trading with the enemy act to cover Russia, it currently only covers Cuba (with North Korea having been removed) and would also provide a solid argument for treason charges against anyone assisting Russian election interference.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#259758: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:13:28 AM

Also one possible escalation is expanding the 1917 trading with the enemy act to cover Russia, it currently only covers Cuba (with North Korea having been removed) and would also provide a solid argument for treason charges against anyone assisting Russian election interference.

Shut up and take my money vote.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#259759: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:15:48 AM

The biggest thing we can do is to strangle their economy. The way things are organized with the oligarchs and the sheer number of businesses owned by the state means that buying Russian goods or using Russian services is almost a direct deposit into the Russian treasury.

Oh really when?
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#259760: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:28:08 AM

[up] What makes you think it would end up in the Russian Treasury? It’s much more likely to end up in the pockets of the Putin’s cronies, since they are practically robbing their country blind.

Edited by megaeliz on Nov 3rd 2018 at 10:29:30 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#259761: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:33:07 AM

Putin has solidified his power by making them split the money, the Russian treasury gets a small percentage of what they steal and they get the rest.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#259762: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:42:19 AM

Because if they don't give Russia the money Putin has no qualms about just having them shot in the back of the head.

Oligarchs are state actors, not investors in the Russian government or mob bosses asking Putin for protection money or whatever.

Oh really when?
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#259763: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:58:26 AM

Tobias' post at the top of the page: I'd think the testing ground was turning Jade Helm into a conspiracy in the minds of conservatives.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259764: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:13:13 AM

Cyber attacks against Russia itself, which is quite vulnerable to that sort of thing, and kinetic attacks against their proxies in Syria and Ukraine would be a good start.

They should have sent a poet.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#259765: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:35:33 AM

I just discovered the Secret Service codenames for Obama and Trump in their respective terms as POTUS... and they're rather fitting (though you have to take Obama's in a loose sense). Didn't know they allowed a sense of humor into their official business.

Obama: Renegadenote . Trump: Mogul.

Edited by MarqFJA on Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:35:51 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#259766: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:37:24 AM

Here's the thing,you do not want a war with Russia,you do not want war (if you can help it,sometimes it's unavoidable) with any country period due to the effect it has on the world market's and America's reputation.This means any action against Russia must be weighed carefully,do enough damage and they will turn hostile because that's what they want,Russia continually antagonises America,now meddling America's elections is the last proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and Russia knows this,they've always wanted a war against America,ever since the cold war where it looked like the slightest mistake could lead to a nuclear war

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#259767: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:48:56 AM

Russia absolutely does not want a war with the USA. Even if it was just the USA, it's not going to win. But most likely a war with the USA is a war with all of NATO, and long-term political ambitions don't work when you've gone to war and lost.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259768: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:49:37 AM

[up][up] So you’re saying we should just let Russia do whatever they want with total impunity?

I’ve said it before, but Russia’s only advantage is that they’ll do what we won’t. It’s sort of like the situation with Trump; we had all sorts of rules we thought governed the presidency but it turned out a bad actor could just choose not to follow them.

Russia is that bad actor. They violate arms control treaties once thought set in stone without compunction, they gleefully disregard international norms, and they’ve now proven more than willing to directly attack the US.

At some point we have to respond.

Edited by archonspeaks on Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:50:15 AM

They should have sent a poet.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#259769: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:53:15 AM

[up]The question is, how do we respond without risking escalation? Because that's what you need to consider.

Edited by kkhohoho on Nov 3rd 2018 at 10:53:26 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259770: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:53:42 AM

Here's the thing,you do not want a war with Russia,you do not want war (if you can help it,sometimes it's unavoidable) with any country period due to the effect it has on the world market's and America's reputation.This means any action against Russia must be weighed carefully,do enough damage and they will turn hostile because that's what they want,Russia continually antagonises America,now meddling America's elections is the last proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and Russia knows this,they've always wanted a war against America,ever since the cold war where it looked like the slightest mistake could lead to a nuclear war

Ok, I'm sorry but I have to say it.

This is dumb.

Russia does not want war, we don't want war.

They use cyberwarfare (for the lack of a better term) to attack us and they support proxies to attack our world-order, an actual full-on war would be insane and would actively go against both sides' interests.

When we're talking about making Russia pay for their attacks we're talking about using the same non-kinetic means that they've been using on us, we will not be sending a bomber to Moscow.

I shouldn't have to say this but I guess I have to.

The question is, how do we respond without risking escalation? Because that's what you need to consider.

Cyber-attacks, if they escalate then we can match them and hit far harder then they can.

Russia launched those attacks because they know that our feebleness would stop us from responding, fears of escalation merely play into their hands.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 3rd 2018 at 11:54:57 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259771: Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:00:14 AM

[up][up] I mentioned it above. Offensive cyberwarfare against Russian government facilities and infrastructure, kinetic warfare against their proxies, and hopefully a continuing pipeline of arms to Ukraine.

International norms and law only goes as far as our willingness to enforce it. Letting Russia run all over the place is not only damaging to us but sets a dangerous precedent overall.

They should have sent a poet.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#259772: Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:03:30 AM

[up]

Offensive cyberwarfare against Russian government facilities and infrastructure

Which could still lead to escalation. Particularly if we go after their infrastructure.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259773: Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:05:49 AM

[up] Frankly, so what? The paralyzing fear of escalation, like Fourthspartan pointed out, is exactly why they’ve been able to get away with so much.

The alternative is letting them continue to undermine the liberal world order, which is unacceptable. They need to be brought back in line.

They should have sent a poet.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#259774: Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:07:02 AM

Escalation is already happening, and is only going to get worse. I'd rather it start occurring on the West's terms instead of Moscow's.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259775: Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:09:48 AM

[up][up],[up] Well said.

The risk of escalation is well worth it, the alternative is doing nothing and allowing Russia to replace the Liberal world order with a reactionary nationalist-international which perpetually squabbles and does nothing to address climate change or any other major issue that afflicts humanity.

That must not be permitted to occur.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 3rd 2018 at 12:10:26 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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