TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259351: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:59:44 PM

[up]The difference is that when most converts bring their old traditions with them to their new faith they at least leave behind the original name of their old faith. That's how conversion works.

Messianic Judaism maintains a core Christian belief, but tries to keep the trappings of Judaism and even its name. It's basically a Christian sect trying to appropriate Jewish traditions and trappings.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259352: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:09:12 AM

The problem with that logic is that people are non-Jews telling jews that they are not Jews because they have chosen to make a Jewish sect based around an interpretation of Jesus as their messiah. Mainstream Christianity being a Jewish sect that was Latinized and Hellenized. Pauline.

This is a non-Hellenized or Latinized Jewish religion.

They don't identify as Christians but Jews because they are racially and culturally. This is very much of the "Mormons aren't Christians" or "Catholics are the Antichrist" line of thought to me.

And before you say other Jews say they're not Jewish, plenty of religions do the same thing—Buddhist, Christian, and Muslim.

I should ALSO mention that I got this exact same speech from a Messianic Jew who took it very personally and called me outstandingly racist for saying he wasn't Jewish. He was also very pissed off at the Israeli orthodox community for denying them entry into Israel despite allowing atheist Jews into it. He made a not-unconvincing argument its purely prejudicial.

Edit:

Random aside, Alfred Pennyworth's VA from Batman: The Animated Series was a Messanic Jew and pointed out their treatment was tragic as they got shit from both Christians and Jews.

https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Efrem_Zimbalist_Jr.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 30th 2018 at 12:18:25 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#259353: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:18:17 AM

Charles, you're wrong here. I'm Jewish, and these people are absolutely, inarguably, not. Christianity is a spin-off that has its own identity. It came from Judaism, but it is very, very separate from it nowadays, about as separate as Islam is. Trying to claim that you are Jewish when you're following all the tenants of Christianity is flat-out ludicrous nonsense.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259354: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:21:06 AM

I understand, truly.

I say the same thing about Prosperity Gospel members and Republican extremists being non-Christian in behavior. However, I feel like I'm lying when I say they're not-Christians period because I feel like that kind of gatekeeping is wrong and passes the buck. I don't feel comfortable saying that these people don't have the right to claim the identity they have as religious dissidents.

No True Scotsman is a serious issue in religion and I feel fundamentally unhealthy.

I feel like denying a person a religious identity like it's a club is seriously problematic.

Even if I am very comfortable saying, "You're doing it wrong."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 30th 2018 at 12:22:04 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#259355: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:21:46 AM

When there are literally no other Jewish organizations that recognize it as a form of Judaism I think it's probably not a form of Judaism.

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259356: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:23:12 AM

When there are literally no other Jewish organizations that recognize it as a form of Judaism I think it's probably not a form of Judaism.

There's a sect of Islam that has this exact same problem because it reveres Iblis as an archangel.

Are they not?

Are we really getting into stating heresy is a thing determined by the majority?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259357: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:25:12 AM

[up]You're seriously trying to claim that a sect that follows a key tenet of Christianity which is completetly incompatible with Judaism — that Jesus is the Messiah — should be accepted by the rest of Judaism?

Edited by M84 on Oct 31st 2018 at 3:26:40 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#259358: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:26:16 AM

So what's the criteria for what is and isn't Judaism then?

Because probably the biggest one for every other form and denomination is not recognizing Christ as the Messiah.

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259359: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:26:18 AM

Okay, I just looked this up and Messianic Jews according to Wikipedia are considered ethnically Jews and allowed to return under the Law of Return.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism#Response_of_Israeli_government

It was changed in 1989.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#259360: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:27:05 AM

Messianic Judaism is not considered a form of Jewish religion.

Under the law they're allowed if they're of Jewish ethnicity and are legally treated as non practicing Jews.

Edited by LeGarcon on Oct 30th 2018 at 3:29:11 PM

Oh really when?
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259361: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:27:24 AM

[up][up]"only if they can also claim Jewish descent."

That's a key point.

Edited by M84 on Oct 31st 2018 at 3:27:38 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259362: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:28:50 AM

You're seriously trying to claim that a sect that follows a key tenet of Christianity which is completetly incompatible with Judaism — that Jesus is the Messiah — should be accepted by the rest of Judaism?

Given I see all three Abrahamic religions as subsects of one larger religion, this is not an argument you will probably find much traction with. I also spent much of my time in Ministry (which didn't work out) working to convert fundamentalist churches into accepting other sects of Christianity as part of a single larger over-church.

Ecumenism was one of my big words and we worked a lot on building bridges between sects.

So what's the criteria for what is and isn't Judaism then?

Because probably the biggest one for every other form and denomination is not recognizing Christ as the Messiah.

I feel we're getting into the issue of doctrinal vs. identity politics. Which is an area where I feel one should draw a line.

People self-identifying with a religion can have a wide and contradictory range of beliefs. However, personal religion can and should hold to the values they believe in.

Basically, I'm saying, "If we were in Europe would we be the guys who would say that Protestants or Catholics were not true Christians?"

Because that was very unhealthy.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 30th 2018 at 12:31:33 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#259363: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:29:58 AM

So are Jews just Christians that don't believe in Christ then?

Oh really when?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#259364: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:33:09 AM

[up]There's more to it than just that. Judaism doesn't have a Hell, for example.

Okay, I think religion is kind of a silly arbitrary thing anyway, but it's a silly arbitrary thing that has rules to it. I will never deny that these people are Hebrew. Hebrew is their race and it is unchanging, they absolutely have the right to be pissed off if people are denying that they're Hebrew because they changed religions, and they have the right to be angry if people are denying them as Jews when referring to their status as Hebrew people.

Judaism is a religion, and religion can be changed. If you don't follow the rules of the religion, you aren't part of the religion. It's not a race thing, since religion can be changed and isn't inextricably linked to genetics. Non-Hebrew people can be Jews and Hebrew people can be non-Jewish. If the main Jewish heads say you're not Jewish, though, you're not Jewish. If you believe all the Christian things, you're Christian, not Jewish, end of story.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 30th 2018 at 12:34:02 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259365: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:34:47 AM

So are Jews just Christians that don't believe in Christ then?

This was a very interesting and important question in one of my studies which talked about "Where did Christianity go wrong?" One of them was the fact that Paul may have warped the fabric of Christianity by making it a non-Jewish sect. That Peter, a Jew, originally planned and in fact insisted on conversion to Judaism before conversion to Christianity with adherence to rabbincal law of the time period.

There was also a serious secretarian conflict going on at the time among Jewish sects with many outright declaring other sects anathema.

I was surprised when I got to discuss with a missionary about the still-living sect of Samaritan Jews (the practice that got them disbarred at the time was the fact they continued to hold sacrifices without a temple and still do). The missionary talked at length about how they never went away but never were accepted by the Jewish mainstream (or Christians). The African Jewish sects had a similar problem.

The Albergines Crusade were an atrocity, I think we can all agree on. It depended on, "these dudes were not Christian" according to the Latin head of the Church.

I note the vast majority of Christians do not recognize themselves as having Jewish observations beyond a vague acknowledgement they worship the same God. However, I guess my issue is these guys are very very insistent on their Jewish identity and come from guys who are racially Jews and still practice every bit of Jewish ritual except their belief Jesus was a Jewish messiah.

Obviously, given the history, Jewish people can and do have the right to say they're not part of THEIR religion. However, do we have the right to say their religion is not Jewish by fiat? I'm uncomfortable there and could be completely wrong but wanted to state I dislike when people try to tell me I'm not a Christian because I don't belong to their sect or used to be Catholic.

(There's also been Jewish sects which have recognized other people as the Jewish messiah—just not Joshua Ben Josef)

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 30th 2018 at 12:41:28 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#259366: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:47:47 AM

Here's a short article on some of the larger context to the issue.

Rabbi Loren Jacobs is a “Messianic Jew”, better known as ‘Jews for Jesus’. If this isn’t something you’re familiar with these are Jews by ancestry who maintain the trappings of Judaism and some of the ritual law while accepting Jesus as the Messiah and the entirety of Christian theology. They make up an incalculably small number of American Jews and are largely supported, subsidized and advanced by evangelical groups hoping to convert Jews to Christianity.

People can believe anything they want of course. These “messianic” congregations have the same freedom of religion and belief as the rest of us. But for reasons that are difficult to quite capture outside Jewish religious and cultural experience, most Jews see the existence of these groups as a profound offense and an attack on Judaism itself.

Jews have been persecuted for almost two millennia for refusing to accept Christianity as the rightful successor to Judaism. The best way to capture the raw feelings many Jews feel about this is that it is an attempt to destroy or extinguish Judaism from within. Jews have been converting to Christianity individually for two thousand years. When they do, they become Christians. ‘Messianic Judaism’ is less an attempt to convert Jews as it is to convert Judaism itself by creating a faux Judaism – Christianity in a yarmulke – which masquerades as the real thing.

That point is largely an internal matter for Jews. The beliefs of Jews shouldn’t and doesn’t prevent these people from believing and acting as they wish. But in the wake of the deadliest anti-Semitic attack in American history, this is a tremendous slap in the face to the entire Jewish community in the United States.

From this perspective, for this to be connected specifically to Pence isn't even remotely surprising.

Edited by Eschaton on Oct 30th 2018 at 12:49:19 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259367: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:49:19 AM

"Christianity in a yarmulke"...yeah that about sums it up.

No wonder Pence picked that guy instead of an actual rabbi.

And that title..."Fake Jews". Made me laugh and cringe at the same time.

The most benevolent interpretation of Pence's actions is that he's so damn ignorant about Judaism that he actually thinks Messianic Judaism counts as Judaism. But I don't believe that's the case here. Because it's Pence.

Edited by M84 on Oct 31st 2018 at 3:51:47 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#259368: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:49:26 AM

Topic, folks. "What is Judaism or Christianity" is not the topic.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#259369: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:54:11 AM

Agreed. I was just about to say that. This conversation should be moved to the religion thread.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259370: Oct 30th 2018 at 12:59:11 AM

To which I say, screw Pence.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#259371: Oct 30th 2018 at 1:30:34 AM

Again, not true in the beginning. The compensated and "slow abolishment" plans had great support. The Southern economies were not yet dependent on slavery.

They had great support, but they also had great opposition, and Virginia and North Carolina were among the two most ambivalent about this whole centralizing constitution thing. Actually pushing slavery out would have probably been too much for them, and of course South Carolina and Georgia would have told the rest of the Union to cram such a Constitution directly up their asses. So if the South says no, and Rhode Island says no for unrelated reasons, you don't have a Constitution.

In fact, the factors you brought up, combined with the fact that the hardliners wouldn't have agreed, ended up leading to the compromise we got, which was essentially to kick the can down the road until slavery "naturally died out." Which, as we know, it didn't.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259372: Oct 30th 2018 at 2:46:27 AM

Pence is a man I do not in any way shape or form think is more dangerous than Trump. Even to gay people. I do, however, bear a special form of loathing for the man as he strikes me in every decision as a Tautological Templar. He is perfectly Christian in his mind so he justifies every decision he makes as something supported by Christianity. The fact that he goes to many many church groups proclaiming the glories of Trump makes my skin crawl.

I truly despise that man.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 30th 2018 at 2:46:41 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259373: Oct 30th 2018 at 3:42:33 AM

Pence is a man I do not in any way shape or form think is more dangerous than Trump. Even to gay people.

Uhh...not too sure about this. Pence holds all of Trump’s vile views but isn’t distracted by cable news. I suppose you could say Trump is more dangerous because he’s an idiot and you don’t know what he’ll do next, but if I have to choose I’ll take the evil idiot over someone just as evil but competent.

They should have sent a poet.
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#259374: Oct 30th 2018 at 3:46:44 AM

Either way that slimy turtle-faced hack Mitch Mc Connell remains, so it's probably much the same, in the end.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

Total posts: 417,856
Top