TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#259326: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:10:53 PM

Fun fact: One of the biggest proponents of giving non-property owners the vote among the Founding Fathers? Thomas Jefferson.

"Wait," I hear you say, "notable slave rapist Thomas Jefferson was a proponent of giving commoners who didn't own land the vote? Didn't you say that that would've made it easier to abolish slavery?"

Yeah, he didn't support it out of altruism though. See... Unlike in the Northern colonies, where the parcels of land were relatively small and there were many small land owners, all the land in the Southern colonies was in the hands of a few large land owners (Jefferson himself owned fully 20% of the land in Virginia).

If voting rights were tied to land ownership, then not only would Virginian and other Southern electors get massively outnumbered once proportional enumeration of electors was decided, but the people in his own State would resent the fuck out of him for owning all that land they were working and getting taxed over as tenants without getting the votes that Northern small landowners were getting for working the same size plot of land (except also owning it rather than leasing it).

Extending the definition of the kind of properties that bestowed voting rights to include slaves and other chattel was actually the compromise that Jefferson and his opponents reached to get him to accept property-based voting rights restrictions.

Angry gets shit done.
eagleoftheninth Midwest emo connoisseur from a dreamed portrait, imperfect (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Midwest emo connoisseur
#259327: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:38:25 PM

Makes sense. Slaves were always more valuable as property assets than as actual instruments of manufacture and agriculture.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259328: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:42:51 PM

So, in a horrible new low point even for the abysmal low standards I have for Mike Pence, he had a FAKE RABBI give a prayer for Pittsburgh.

AFTER praying for republican candidates first, that is.

That’s a deliberate and vicious message, and I am the most ashamed I’ve ever been to be from Pence’s home state.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 29th 2018 at 11:53:14 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259329: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:49:50 PM

[up]So now they're going "All Religions Matter" in the wake of an anti-Semitic mass murder.

...Nope. Still not surprised. They did after all try to make it into an argument for more armed guards everywhere just recently.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#259330: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:54:41 PM

A rabbi of a messianic synagogue isn't quite a "fake rabbi". Like, they didn't dress up some rando as a jew, this is someone who's built an identity around being a jew that believes in Jesus

Still super-tacky and obviously a way to show sympathy to the jews without actually showing sympathy to jews, though

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259331: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:56:16 PM

It’s not just “all religions matter.”

A Jew who believes in Jesus is not a thing.

If a Catholic Church was the site of a vicious attack, you can be damn sure they’d find a catholic priest to do the prayer. This was a vicious, anti-Semitic message. Dead Jews don’t matter, here’s a Christian “rabbi” instead. Thus saith Mike Pence, the worst man produced by Indiana.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 29th 2018 at 11:57:29 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#259332: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:57:05 PM

It got lost in a mix of page-bottom and the latest discussion, but the latest WTF Just Happened Today feed is a couple pages back. Rather than massive post again, I'll just provide the link: https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2018/10/29/day-648/

There's also summary of the Mueller probe's progress over the past week: https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/what-we-learned/2018/10/week-of-oct-21-27/

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the fact that Jews don't believe in Jesus and the New Testament literally one of the single biggest differences between it and Christianity?

Edited by sgamer82 on Oct 29th 2018 at 10:00:00 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#259333: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:57:32 PM

Kellyanne Conway was definitely doing "All Religions Matter", though, going on about "Anti-Religiosity" on Fox News.

Oh God! Natural light!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259334: Oct 29th 2018 at 8:59:29 PM

That one Twitter thread pointed out that it's likely a way to drum up Evangelical votes in a way that talking about Anti-Semitism obviously wouldn't.

Edited by M84 on Oct 29th 2018 at 11:59:42 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#259335: Oct 29th 2018 at 9:45:43 PM

The thing with ending slavery is that if they'd really tried like you ask, we'd have had two countries from the outset, divided by the Mason-Dixon line. Because the Southern planters, who held the existing power in the South, would not have let abolition be imposed without a fight. And while the US could force Rhode Island to join eventually, a war between North and South in 1787 would have been completely unacceptable to the Founders, particularly a war over the rights of black people.

You can't just snap your fingers and decree something like this. You have to break the power of the opposition first.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259336: Oct 29th 2018 at 9:57:18 PM

Again, not true in the beginning.

The compensated and "slow abolishment" plans had great support.

The Southern economies were not yet dependent on slavery.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259337: Oct 29th 2018 at 10:00:25 PM

A Jew who believes in Jesus is not a thing

Yes, they do exist.

Both racially and religiously.

However, that doesn't reduce any of the level of insult and vileness of Pence who continues to display some of the worst of my faith's habits all at once.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259338: Oct 29th 2018 at 10:39:12 PM

[up]No, Messianic Judaism is not a form of Judaism. Most of the world's established Jewish institutions do not recognize it as Judaism. They recognize it as Christianity.

The State of Israel for one doesn't allow Messianic Judaism followers to claim the right to live in Israel under the Law of Return.

Edited by M84 on Oct 30th 2018 at 1:43:27 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
eagleoftheninth Midwest emo connoisseur from a dreamed portrait, imperfect (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Midwest emo connoisseur
#259339: Oct 29th 2018 at 10:45:08 PM

Ehh, normally I'm not for religious gatekeeping, but this is one of those cases where handing over the mic to a fringe sect is an objectively evil thing.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259340: Oct 29th 2018 at 10:49:20 PM

It's not even a sect of Judaism. Again, most other Jewish denominations and the state of Israel do not recognize it as such. Heck, its origins are rooted in the Hebrew Christian Movement, who were Jewish converts to Christianity.

Disgusted, but not surprised
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#259341: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:12:42 PM

Yeah, it is not a sect of Judaism, full stop. That man was not a Jew. This is why it is important to differentiate between Hebrew and Jewish. That man was Hebrew, as it is his race. He was not Jewish, it is not his religion.

Also, slavery has been a thing ever since agriculture first started thousands of years ago. It is one of the Human race's oldest traditions, one does not simply end slavery on a whim. It's still around today, in many forms. It's awful and evil, sure, but ending the institution of slavery was, at the time, considered unthinkable. It was only relatively recently that the idea of a world without slavery became widely accepted.

The mindset was not "slavery is bad and it should end" it was, at best "slavery is bad, but it's not like you can do anything about it".

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 29th 2018 at 11:17:18 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#259342: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:19:39 PM

[up] It was definitely completely inappropriate, and horribly tone deaf to say the least.

Because I'm a nerd who saw a chance to bore you all with something I actually did learn in my Religion class, I do want to point out that the cultural and religious blending and assimilation is actually more common than you'd think. Eastern Religions in particular are known for their happily borrowing concepts and deities from each other, and a lot of modern customs and traditions in major world religions today, are products of Religious Synchronism and converts bringing their old traditions with them.

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 29th 2018 at 2:26:11 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259343: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:25:31 PM

[up]Messianic Judaism is way more than just "blending". It's trying to claim it's Judaism while maintaining a core tenet of Christianity that is incompatible with Judaism — that Jesus was the Messiah. There's a reason Jewish organizations aren't exactly eager to accept them.

It's pretty much cultural appropriation when you think about it.

Edited by M84 on Oct 30th 2018 at 2:27:22 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#259344: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:31:41 PM

[up] I really don’t know enough about that particular group to make a judgement, but couldn’t you make the arguement that in a situation like that, it might actually be a new religion in itself.

Like my gut tells me that these are just loony fanatics like Pence and the rest of them, but just food for thought.

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 29th 2018 at 2:37:34 PM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#259345: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:37:01 PM

It seems straightforward to me. To my understanding, one of the biggest differences between Judaism and Christianity is that Jews don't regard Jesus as the Messiah. Christians await the second coming of Christ while Jews don't think we've even had a first coming.

From context, as I've never heard of them before today, a "Messianic Jew" sounds like a Jew that acknowledges the Messiah. In other words, a Jew that acknowledges something that Jews, by definition, do not acknowledge.

Is that the basic idea?

Edited by sgamer82 on Oct 29th 2018 at 12:38:07 PM

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#259346: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:40:09 PM

[up]

We're moving into theology that causes flame wars, but generally speaking no human can be divine in Judaism.

It popped up in the 60's and 70's. It may have been just another heresy back in the first century but now, not really.

Edited by TerminusEst on Oct 29th 2018 at 11:41:34 AM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#259347: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:40:54 PM

[up][up]You've never heard of "Jews for Jesus" before?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#259348: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:41:55 PM

it might actually be a new religion in itself

It is, and you may have heard of it. It's this hot new religion that goes by the more well-known name of Christianity.

Jesus was Jewish, Judaism was around long before he was and, according to Judaism, he was just another Jewish dude. Not any kind of demi-god.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 29th 2018 at 11:42:57 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259349: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:46:13 PM

[up][up]Even the name of that organization "Jews for Jesus" is off. The whole thing was started by a Jewish convert to Christianity (so...a Christian) whose goal is to convert more Jewish people to Christianity.

Edited by M84 on Oct 30th 2018 at 2:46:33 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#259350: Oct 29th 2018 at 11:49:28 PM

[up] As I said, it’s almost certainly some conservative sect of crazy. I mean, why else would Pence have them there?

I just find the whole thing of cultural assimilation and translation really interesting and wanted an excuse to talk about it.

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 29th 2018 at 2:53:44 PM


Total posts: 417,856
Top