TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259126: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:10:13 PM

[up][up][up] Agree to disagree. I think hairsplitting on technicalities misses the forest for the trees. You don’t have to make an explicit “ok, we only do this to all the brown immigrants, and we only give their kids to white parents” policy, if the end result is nearly the same as if you did.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#259127: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:11:14 PM

Reposting in case people have missed it, since the discussion is moving rather fast right now.

Studies show the death penalty is useless as a deterrent
Have those studies looked into how much of this apparent uselessness is due to misapplication and/or selectiveness in its application (if more first-degree murderers get away with their crimes than those who do get executed, then obviously the punishment comes across as toothless), how much is because the root problems that drive people to commit crimes worthy of the death penalty haven't even been remotely addressed, and how much is because the forces and individuals behind the exploitation of the prison system prefer to have convicts imprisoned rather than executed to perform forced labor for the prison runners' and sponsors' own benefit?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259128: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:15:10 PM

[up][up] At the end of the day you’re still calling the situation something it isn’t for what seems like political expediency.

It’s disrespectful to victims of genocide, and entirely unnecessary for fighting the current situation to boot.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 27th 2018 at 1:16:19 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Imca (Veteran)
#259129: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:17:15 PM

[up][up]Its fucking internment camps... the repeat.

The second time the US has done this.

Being pandedic about the deffinition doesn't help.

Edited by Imca on Oct 27th 2018 at 1:17:46 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259130: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:24:47 PM

Actually, no, I was surprised by it as well but separating children from their families falls under genocide as well.

It's because of attempts to destroy Native cultures by raising children white.

So, yes, it's genocide.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259131: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:26:24 PM

[up]x4 Here’s an ACLU overview of problems with the death penalty. My initial googling on deterrence hit a lot of academic research website paywalls.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 27th 2018 at 4:26:48 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259132: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:29:50 PM

[up][up][up] Internment isn’t genocide. It’s still a crime against humanity, though. It was a war crime as well during WW 2, kind of the double whammy of evil.

[up][up] The current family separation fails to meet the definition of genocide. Words have meaning, they can’t just be anything you want. Speaking as someone whose ancestors were actual victims of genocide, it really is disrespectful to bend the term for the sake of making things sound worse, especially when things are bad enough already.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 27th 2018 at 1:31:07 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259133: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:41:27 PM

Uh...dude.

You may want to research this. Just saying.

http://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/2018/07/02/Genocide-Watch-Issues-Statement-on-Forced-Family-Separation-Detention-Deportation-in-the-United-States

Here, look at the definition:

http://www.un.org/ar/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf

  • Forcible transfer of children, imposed by direct force or through fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 27th 2018 at 1:46:34 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#259134: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:49:03 PM

Yeah, it's bullshit to claim that it's disrespectful to victims of genocide when you're denying that they're victims of genocide. It's genocide, plain and simple. You're minimizing how dire the current situation is because you're in denial that it really is as bad as it is, but no, it is that bad.

The government is not about to commit genocide, the government is committing genocide as we speak. The time to act is now.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259135: Oct 27th 2018 at 1:53:52 PM

While I largely agree with [up][up] , archon, I am so sorry for your family’s experience with genocide; that’s absolutely horrific and I can see how that might affect your thoughts on defining the term.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 27th 2018 at 4:54:21 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259136: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:01:15 PM

[up][up][up] You should quote the actual definition, not cherry pick:

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part1 ; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The situation at the border is horrific. It absolutely meets the requirements for a crime against humanity. Despite that, though, it's not really genocide. We have no evidence that the Trump administration is attempting to destroy Latino culture. To use an example, while internment during WW 2 was both a crime against humanity and a war crime, it wasn't genocide because it wasn't committed with "intent to destroy" Japanese culture.

I agree with the Genocide Watch article you linked that it is a matter of concern, though I don't think a genocide is imminent. In a just world, Trump and friends would already be before the ICC for crimes against humanity. Again, not genocide though.

[up] I appreciate it, and I do think my views are probably a little more stringent on this subject than average. However, if this went to court, the definition wouldn't be met. I'm in no way trying to downplay what's going on here, just pointing out that it's not quite all the way there yet.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 27th 2018 at 2:05:55 AM

They should have sent a poet.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#259137: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:01:43 PM

@wisewillow:

The death penalty system in the US is applied in an unfair and unjust manner against people, largely dependent on how much money they have, the skill of their attorneys, race of the victim and where the crime took place. People of color are far more likely to be executed than white people, especially if the victim is white
That's blatantly a "this punishment is being misused, therefore it's fundamentally bad" argument. I hope I don't need to point out the obvious Logical Fallacy in it.

And like that, I already start suspecting that this is a biased assessment.

The death penalty is a waste of taxpayer funds and has no public safety benefit. The vast majority of law enforcement professionals surveyed agree that capital punishment does not deter violent crime; a survey of police chiefs nationwide found they rank the death penalty lowest among ways to reduce violent crime. They ranked increasing the number of police officers, reducing drug abuse, and creating a better economy with more jobs higher than the death penalty as the best ways to reduce violence. The FBI has found the states with the death penalty have the highest murder rates.
  1. There's not even a brief explanation of why the surveyed individuals have ranked it so low.

  2. Increasing the number of police officers would only make sense if there's a problem of understaffed jurisdictions, which is a whole different can of worms; meanwhile, drug abuse and a better economy are technically aimed at fixing the roots of the problem, which is a different paradigm that isn't mutually exclusive with the death penaltynote .

  3. Citation needed for the last claim.

Innocent people are too often sentenced to death. Since 1973, over 156 people have been released from death rows in 26 states because of innocence. Nationally, at least one person is exonerated for every 10 that are executed.
Again, blaming the misuse/abuse of the punishment on the punishment itself.

Like those barbaric practices, executions have no place in a civilized society.
It's easy to claim that something is "barbaric" and doesn't belong in civilized society. What's harder and more important, however, is justifying such a claim by explaining your reasons. I see no explanation whatsoever, therefore I will not deign this point with any acknowledgement.

It is unusual because only the United States of all the western industrialized nations engages in this punishment.
The label "western industrialized nations" is pretty much synonymous with "Europe west of the Cold War-era Iron Curtain, plus the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan." The Europeans (particularly Germany and Austria) have a huge complex/trauma about the Nazis' atrocities during WW 2 that explains why they have abolished the death penalty. Canada, Australia and New Zealand were all British colonies and even after becoming independent countries, they're close enough to the UK that it's understandable why they followed in their footsteps. Japan's case is pretty much the same as Europe.

That doesn't mean that they're right about doing so, though.

It is also unusual because only a random sampling of convicted murderers in the United States receive a sentence of death.
Do I have to repeat myself a third time?

Capital punishment denies due process of law. Its imposition is often arbitrary, and always irrevocable – forever depriving an individual of the opportunity to benefit from new evidence or new laws that might warrant the reversal of a conviction, or the setting aside of a death sentence.

The death penalty violates the constitutional guarantee of equal protection. It is applied randomly – and discriminatorily. It is imposed disproportionately upon those whose victims are white, offenders who are people of color, and on those who are poor and uneducated and concentrated in certain geographic regions of the country.

Four... Five times now. Come on, really?

Capital punishment wastes limited resources. It squanders the time and energy of courts, prosecuting attorneys, defense counsel, juries, and courtroom and law enforcement personnel. It unduly burdens the criminal justice system, and it is thus counterproductive as an instrument for society's control of violent crime. Limited funds that could be used to prevent and solve crime (and provide education and jobs) are spent on capital punishment.
I sure hope they actually have the numbers to support this claim, but even it has to be weighed against a lot of other things, like the risk of repeat offense (exactly how do you quantify the "value" of a murdered innocent's life?).

Opposing the death penalty does not indicate a lack of sympathy for murder victims. On the contrary, murder demonstrates a lack of respect for human life. Because life is precious and death irrevocable, murder is abhorrent, and a policy of state-authorized killings is immoral.
Funny that they're jusing "it's immoral!" as an argument when they're part of a society that upholds "moral relativism" as an integral cultural value.

It epitomizes the tragic inefficacy and brutality of violence, rather than reason, as the solution to difficult social problems.
Explain how you came to this conclusion, please.

Many murder victims do not support state-sponsored violence to avenge the death of their loved one.
  1. "Many murder victims do not support..." Since when did we figure out how to communicate with the dead?

  2. How many of those people are opposed to killing of any kind on principle? And exactly why should their objections be valued more than the calls of others who do support "state-sponsored violence" to avenge the deaths of their loved ones?

Changes in death sentencing have proved to be largely cosmetic. The defects in death-penalty laws, conceded by the Supreme Court in the early 1970s, have not been appreciably altered by the shift from unrestrained discretion to "guided discretion." Such so-called “reforms” in death sentencing merely mask the impermissible randomness of a process that results in an execution.
Six times.

A society that respects life does not deliberately kill human beings. An execution is a violent public spectacle of official homicide, and one that endorses killing to solve social problems – the worst possible example to set for the citizenry, and especially children. Governments worldwide have often attempted to justify their lethal fury by extolling the purported benefits that such killing would bring to the rest of society. The benefits of capital punishment are illusory, but the bloodshed and the resulting destruction of community decency are real.
A bold claim to make without actually giving even a summary of a well-reasoned explanation.

At this point, I've lost any interest in continuing through the rest of this Wall of Text (I'm only about 10% through), as practically every argument I've read so far is largely if not utterly unconvincing, with several being guilty of one Logical Fallacy or the other.

Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 27th 2018 at 12:02:27 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259138: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:11:21 PM

Yeah, it's bullshit to claim that it's disrespectful to victims of genocide when you're denying that they're victims of genocide. It's genocide, plain and simple. You're minimizing how dire the current situation is because you're in denial that it really is as bad as it is, but no, it is that bad.

The government is not about to commit genocide, the government is committing genocide as we speak. The time to act is now.

The targeting of undocumented immigrants while undeniably a heinous crime driven by nothing but prejudice cannot be seriously called genocide, there is no ongoing program to empty the United States of Latinos through mass murder or forcibly breaking up families.

To use genocide for anything other than the targeted destruction of ethnic or racial groups is an abuse of the term. And targeting undocumented immigrants is not by itself an attempt to destroy an ethnic or racial group.

It is not comparable to the Holocaust, Rwanda, or the Armenian Genocide. There is nothing bullshit about acknowledging the very real differences.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 5:12:42 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#259139: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:13:35 PM

I'm actually pretty ambivalent on whether the death penalty as a concept is inherently immoral.

But, I consider that irrelevant to the fact that it's provable that it's application is routinely arbitrary and unjust for a number of factors, and I don't have much confidence that all of those factors will be adequately addressed (or even that it's possible to completely address them) any time soon.

So that alone is enough for me to say I functionally oppose the death penalty.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 27th 2018 at 1:40:56 PM

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#259140: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:18:28 PM

It's sort of a well known legal principle that harsher penalties fail to deter criminals because as a rule criminals do not plan on being caught. When decision-making, they do not weigh the potential penalty very much at all, because if they thought they'd get caught they wouldn't be committing crimes. Making them think they're more likely to get caught has a far more direct effect on the crime rate.

This isn't directly related to the death penalty so much as punitive justice in general.

Edited by Clarste on Oct 27th 2018 at 2:20:06 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259141: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:18:52 PM

[up][up] I agree. Given that the current application of the death penalty is so, so messed up, I can’t support it. Executing an innocent person is a mistake that can’t be undone.

I can’t find any specific studies on the death penalty and deterrence they aren’t behind a pay wall. But I think we can agree that the majority of people who decide to commit murder don’t make that decision based on whether or not the death penalty might be their eventual fate.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 27th 2018 at 5:20:05 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259142: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:20:18 PM

Philosophically I don't have a problem with the death penalty but practically it's just too racially charged and thus I can't see any reason to oppose it being banned.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#259143: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:22:40 PM

I personally have a problem with the death penalty purely on moral grounds. Everything else just makes it further indefensible.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259144: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:24:00 PM

Going back to the discussion of genocide, I want to make one last point.

White European immigrants are not being treated this way. While the Trump administration may not focus on a specific nationality or race, they are pretty clearly obsessed with getting rid of all the black and brown immigrants here without perfect documentation (and taking away the legal status of currently legally documented black and brown immigrants), and keeping out/imprisoning all the black and brown people attempting to come here, whether legally or not.

Ironically, since their white supremacy is so broad, covering multiple religions and races and nationalities, they are escaping the definition of genocide on a technicality.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 27th 2018 at 5:36:54 AM

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#259145: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:27:01 PM

[up][up][up] The best example for this is the decline in bank robbery. The reason why less and less bank robberies are commited is not because of the (severe) punishment awaiting those who are captured, but because being captured has become very likely, thanks to modern safety standards. Furthermore those safety measures have also made bank robberies highly unattractive, because the amoung of money they can steal has become very negligble. Who wants to risk spending several years in prison for a few thousand bucks?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#259146: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:34:56 PM

While I too am against the death penalty on morel grounds,but I do see why someone would support it.There are some crimes I feel which no amount of jail time is enough for the victims because the crime is just that bad,a crime so unforgivable and the criminal so unrepentant that the death sentence is the only way justice can be felt to be done

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#259147: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:38:41 PM

Isn't there a thread for discussing the death penalty? Maybe we should move it there, since we're not really discussing the topic as it pertains specifically to US politics.

Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 27th 2018 at 12:38:53 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259148: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:38:45 PM

Fair point.

[down] I’m a her, not a him.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 27th 2018 at 5:42:42 AM

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#259149: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:41:17 PM

Edited due to [up] editing out her post.

[up] Sorry! (Seriously, is it too much to ask for gender symbols next to each poster's avatar? Almost every other forum out there does it.)

Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 27th 2018 at 12:49:33 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#259150: Oct 27th 2018 at 2:46:47 PM

x6 It’s more lack of intent than lack of effort, sort of like manslaughter versus murder. To be genocide it needs to be a premeditated policy action to eliminate that specific group, what’s going on now is just more of a generic hatred and internment. Which is still a crime against humanity, obviously, and should be treated as such.

x5 100%. A life sentence or long sentence may as well be the death penalty in terms of deterrent effect, what really makes people think twice is realizing they might get caught.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 27th 2018 at 2:47:59 AM

They should have sent a poet.

Total posts: 417,856
Top