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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259051: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:27:52 AM

Not to mention that Native Americans are still essentially second class citizens, with horrific poverty rates, dilapidated schools, terrible access to health care, suppression of their voting rights, violation of their sacred lands (Standing Rock and more)...

And while democrats are less ACTIVELY harmful than the republicans, the democrats have not done nearly enough to support, let alone expand, the rights of Native Americans to be first class citizens.

You are being actively dishonest, all of those things are directly countered by Democratic policies. To act as if the Democratic Party is just passively harmful to Native Americans is a lie and has no connection to reality.

If Democrats had the opportunity to implement their policies in Native American communities then things would get better for them and to suggest otherwise is nothing more than ignorant #bothsides nonsense.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 11:28:14 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259052: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:40:49 AM

... we can disagree on the extent of democratic support of Native Americans without accusations of dishonesty. And I note no citations to democrats making huge strides for Native Americans when they were in power.

When Obama was president, there was some progress on Native American issues. But democrats have not prioritized Native American issues. Obama was president during Standing Rock, and he didn’t do nearly enough to help the Native American community.

And in horrible, horrible breaking news, a shooter attacked a synagogue this morning, killing eight and wounding others. The suspect, a white male, has been taken into custody, alive.

Police sources tell KDKA’s Andy Sheehan the gunman walked into the building and yelled, “All Jews Must die.” Sheehan confirmed that eight people were confirmed dead. Others had been shot but the extent of their injuries in unknown at this time.

If you have any Jewish friends, a message to express sympathy and support wouldn’t go amiss. Jesus Christ.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#259054: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:48:22 AM

Let's suppose he turns out to be a Republican and that he says he was motivated by Trump's policies/statements. What do you think the GOP's reactions would be?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#259055: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:50:17 AM

"No Republicans would act that way"

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259056: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:53:40 AM

“Our loud dogwhistles about globalists and our enthusiastic use of anti-semitism is completely unrelated to a sudden increase in anti-Semitic violence.”

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#259057: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:55:42 AM

> When Obama was president, there was some progress on Native American issues. But democrats have not prioritized Native American issues. Obama was president during Standing Rock, and he didn’t do nearly enough to help the Native American community.

Ultimately Obama doing anything at all was reliant on congress playing nice,and the Republicans were determined to thwart him at every turn,it's a miracle Obama care survived at all during his presidency.

Edited by Ultimatum on Oct 27th 2018 at 8:56:41 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#259058: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:02:43 AM

https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/1056211447351595008 "alleged suspect had post 2hrs ago blaming jewish immigration resettlement org for caravan, “likes to bring invaders in that kill our people”

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#259059: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:07:26 AM

The man has tentatively been identified as 'Robert Bowers,' who has a profile on Gab and posted againt Jewish organization HIAS

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#259060: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:19:13 AM

Let's put it this way: If the Democrats are in control of the congress and the house and are still not doing anything for native americans, then they deserve criticism. But those periods are short and usually the democrats have other pressing matters to attend to when it happens (like pushing for healthcare for everyone).

For now there is one party which makes the lives of native americans actively worse and one which is at least ready to listen.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#259061: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:24:57 AM

Suppression (and later, neglect) of indigenous groups in more or less every former colony (and even in places like Northern Europe vis a vis the Sami, etc), has been and sadly is (mostly) a bi-partisan issue. Its a national sin in almost every case, penetrating the entire political and social apparatus.

You also have to get local governments to play ball, which in places like the US is like herding cats.

That said, while the Democrats are far from perfect on this file, they are leagues ahead of the Republicans.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Oct 27th 2018 at 1:25:32 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#259062: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:38:15 AM

Democrats can also be opened to Native issues. I find nothing wrong in saying Native issues are unfairly ignored and Native voices are unfairly marginalized, though, because this is truth.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#259063: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:42:06 AM

What has made it so Australia actually commemorates its history of mistreatment of the Aboriginal population and has properly apologized for the Lost Generations, South Africa has legitimately confronted the memory of Apartheid, and Germany has done everything it can to teach its citizens about the crimes they'd committed in the past, but the U.S. has never even made a token move to admit responsibility for what it's done to African-Americans and Native Americans? Why is it so hard for the U.S. to actually look at itself in the mirror, realize the sheer extent of what it's done, and actually try to heal some wounds?

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#259064: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:45:00 AM

Because an entire party and thus swathe of the country exists to enshrine and glorify bigotry in every sense?

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#259065: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:45:13 AM

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Oct 27th 2018 at 12:55:10 PM

i'm tired, my friend
Alycus Since: Apr, 2018
#259066: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:51:36 AM

[up] Or, you know, maybe don't do it for forgiveness, but as a start to implement positive policies for minorities to make up for the past?

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#259067: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:52:12 AM

Giving an Apology in the full expectation of Forgiveness is something children do. An Apology is an admission of wrongdoing, that's the point of it.

Edited by 3of4 on Oct 27th 2018 at 6:52:33 PM

"You can reply to this Message!"
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#259068: Oct 27th 2018 at 9:53:04 AM

I don’t think you should give an apology only if you’re expecting forgiveness - rather, an apology is the first step towards making things right.

I’d argue that the government should find a way to make reparations somehow.

[nja]

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Oct 27th 2018 at 1:57:02 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259069: Oct 27th 2018 at 10:12:47 AM

When Obama was president, there was some progress on Native American issues. But democrats have not prioritized Native American issues. Obama was president during Standing Rock, and he didn’t do nearly enough to help the Native American community.

When Obama was President the Democrats only held Congress briefly and used that political capital to pass the ACA, which led to a backlash that caused Republicans to take control of the House and vast swathes of Local Governments.

Of course the Democrats couldn't help Native Americans when they literally were not in power, this is not evidence that the Democratic Party will not support Native Americans if they can. It's simple that for recent memory they've been out of power and thus simply could not help anyone.

It has nothing to do with political priorities and everything to do with not being in a position to actually help. To use that as evidence that Democrats don't care is gross historical revisionism.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 1:26:02 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#259070: Oct 27th 2018 at 10:13:04 AM

The major thing is improving the living conditions of groups that are among the most disadvantaged (if not the most) demographics in their respective jurisdictions.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#259071: Oct 27th 2018 at 10:24:17 AM

Though I understand the reasoning behind not wanting the Democrats to apologize (some of which I'd normally lean towards), I'm just going to say that things like this usually aren't about logic or reasoning (not that the pro-apologize side is being illogical).

And ultimately if it could better cement an in to help repair damage, it would be worth. It's not like issuing an apology would actually harm anything, anyway, this basically sounds like a "principle of the matter" type deal, which while those can be genuinely important, I'm not so sure this is the best line in the sand to draw.

PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#259072: Oct 27th 2018 at 10:51:53 AM

Perhaps it'd be a better idea later down the line, if the Democrats are in power again - that way they could semi-legitimately apologize 'on behalf of the United States of America' - which would have the added bonus of drawing out bigots who'd complain that they'd apologize in the first place.

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259073: Oct 27th 2018 at 10:56:59 AM

Native reparations is something I also genuinely support, albeit I'm not sure there's any number which would be worth it.

Federal money to them would be extremely good money spent.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#259074: Oct 27th 2018 at 10:59:49 AM

This is uncomfortably verging on the same kind of rhetoric I often hear about, "Black people need to shut the f*ck up about slavery. I, personally, have never owned any slaves, so don't blame me just 'cause you can't man the f*ck up and get over it! Sincerely, White Dudes."

Like it or not, we're flying Jackson's banner. That means we should make a conscious effort to both distance ourselves from Jackson and to show his victims that we're not those people. I'm going to quote a bit about redemption from this comic here:

Redemption requires more than simply the execution of your duty, even if you follow that duty to the end. True redemption demands that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. ... That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong. You have done none of this.

We remain haunted by the sins of the past because we are trying to simply move forward and forget them. We're merely executing our duty, trying to improve the lives of Americans everywhere, while making no effort to actually seek forgiveness or atone for the Democrats of the past.

You, personally, have probably never committed genocide against the Native American people. I know I haven't. Never even felt tempted to. But the party isn't defined by you, personally. Or by me. Or by any individual that has membership in it. The party is more than its members. It's an idea that was here long before us, will be here after us, and hasn't always been an idea we can support.

Republicans thrive on this continuity on identity. Much of their support is built on the history of the GOP versus the history of the Democrats. The Party of Lincoln versus the Party of Slavery, Genocide, etc. And like it or not, that history will always be there. You cannot run from the past.

You might not have done anything wrong. I might not have. But the only way we're ever going to chip away the Republicans' ill-begotten "moral high ground" is by making an effort to not just execute our duty, but to redeem the Party. And that starts with atonement for those the Party's hurt. We have that responsibility so long as we continue to fly its banner.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 27th 2018 at 12:01:56 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259075: Oct 27th 2018 at 11:05:25 AM

Very well said. I agree.


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