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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259026: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:28:26 AM

The opinion that two centuries of colonial exploitation have no bearing on the dynamics of present-day America and Europe is entirely inconsistent with just about any scholarship on the matter. It is, for as close as you can get to absolute truth in the inherently fluid science of human endeavor, wrong.

This does not address their point in the slightest, no one has denied that colonialism has modern effects.

What is being denied is that it's necessary or good for the modern Democratic Party to apologize for the actions of people who lived almost two centuries ago. The modern Democratic Part already fights against those negative effects and thus this call for them to apologize over it is nothing but undeserved flagellation that wouldn't help anyone.

They are trying to make it better and thus I see no purpose in feeding your self-righteousness.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#259027: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:29:03 AM

Eh...we kind of have parties in power during WWI. Though the "in power" part is very limited, but Germany had a Constitutional monarchy, which in turn meant that there were elected officials with limited powers, one of those powers being that the parliament had to agree to war.

So, yeah, not only were there parties, one of the parties which gave their agreement is still around today. You might know it, it is the SPD (the social democrats). Not that it prevented them from being accused to have sabotaged the war later on. But the SPD redeemed itself by standing firmly against Hitler, so most people don't really care about their small role in giving green light for WWI.

In the context of US politics, I do think that independent from the party in question, it would do the US some good to apologize to the people of Africa for enslaving so many of them, and to the ones now living in the US for what was done to their ancestors. Instead of, you know, going all "well, they are lucky that they aren't living in Africa".

And in order to understand why an apology is a good idea, well, I recommend to study modern negotiation techniques. See, in the past the idea was to never admit a mistake ever, because this would give the person on the other side of the negotiation table some advantage. Nowadays the theory goes that this isn't necessarily the case, because by admitting a wrong doing, you are kind of claiming the moral high ground, forcing the other side to take a step in your direction. That naturally only works if both people negotiate in good faith, but tit for tat is way more effective than trying to bully someone into your point of view.

Edited by Swanpride on Oct 27th 2018 at 6:32:41 AM

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#259028: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:34:54 AM

Anyone who says modern Democrats are evil because of shit they did 200 years ago is not arguing in good faith.

Edited by speedyboris on Oct 27th 2018 at 8:35:19 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#259029: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:34:54 AM

And in order to understand why an apology is a good idea, well, I recommend to study modern negotiation techniques. See, in the past the idea was to never admit a mistake ever, because this would give the person on the other side of the negotiation table some advantage. Nowadays the theory goes that this isn't necessarily the case, because by admitting a wrong doing, you are kind of claiming the moral high ground, forcing the other side to take a step in your direction. That naturally only works if both people negotiate in good faith, but tit for tat is way more effective than trying to bully someone into your point of view.

Since when has politics ever worked like a good-faith negotiation?

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#259030: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:36:33 AM

[up][up]I think no one here says they are evil. They need to 'fess up to the sins of their fathers, but obviously there is disagreement here.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#259031: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:46:02 AM

It’s not that Democrats are bad for what past democrats did, it’s that democrats who are unwilling to say “genocide is bad and Jackson was bad for commiting genocide” are bad.

An apology doesn't have to come from them as democrats, it can come from them as as Americans.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#259032: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:48:04 AM

[up] Except this is in the context of a group not voting for Democrats because of Jackson.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#259033: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:48:27 AM

The present day Democratic stronghold of New England voted against Jackson twice, while the South voted across the board for Jackson twice. I understand and fully support Native American antipathy toward him, but if they really want to repudiate his legacy, their anger really should be directed at their neighbors — who are all Republicans today. Claiming any ideological lineage from Jackson and the agrarian party of the Antebellum days, the segregationist party of the Civil War, or even the bimetallism pressure group it had become under William Jennings Bryan, is transparently false, and really only proves the political illiteracy of the accuser.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 27th 2018 at 9:51:27 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259034: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:48:37 AM

It’s not that Democrats are bad for what past democrats did, it’s that democrats who are unwilling to say “genocide is bad and Jackson was bad for commiting genocide” are bad.

An apology doesn't have to come from them as democrats, it can come from them as as Americans.

Except "Genocide is bad and Jackson is bad" is not an apology, so that's not what's being asked for.

What's being asked for is that they apologize, or in other words accept responsibility for the actions done one hundred and ninety-two years ago. It's just not accurate to claim that all that's being asked for is a rejection of him and his actions, it's more than that.

I will fully accept that Genocide is bad and Jackson is bad (I personally want him to be removed from the dollar) but I will never apologize for his actions and I will always oppose the Democrats apologizing.

The present day Democratic stronghold of New England voted against Jackson twice, while the South voted across the board for Jackson twice. I understand and fully support Native American antipathy toward him, but if they really want to repudiate his legacy, their anger really should be directed at their neighbors — who are all Republicans today.

Exactly, it's just childish and ignorant to act as if the modern Democratic party has any real connection to the Democratic Party of old.

If it did then black people would not be a crucial foundation of the party.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 9:50:24 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#259035: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:49:46 AM

If they have the name of his party, they should repudiate him.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259036: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:51:19 AM

If they have the name of his party, they should repudiate him.

Yes, they should repudiate him, he was a terrible person.

But they shouldn't apologize for him, they have no responsibility for his actions and their party has no connection to him beyond the most shallow level.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#259037: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:52:40 AM

"If they have the name of his party, they should repudiate him."

Name a Democrat elected in the past twenty-five years who hasn't repudiated the Trail of Tears or the reservation system.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#259038: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:57:25 AM

I asked before if the US government has ever formally apologised for Jackson’s genocide and used the word genocide to refer to it, nobody answered.

The US government does not get to pretend that it never happened, it should issue a formal apology, and that’s going to have to come from a Democrat, because a Republican isn’t going to give one.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259039: Oct 27th 2018 at 6:59:16 AM

I asked before if the US government has ever formally apologised for Jackson’s genocide and used the word genocide to refer to it, nobody answered.

The US government does not get to pretend that it never happened, it should issue a formal apology, and that’s going to have to come from a Democrat, because a Republican isn’t going to give one.

Yes the US government should apologize, and when it does it will be done by a Democrat.

The nation itself does have continuity to the iteration that did those things so there is absolutely reason to apologize, my opposition is solely to the idea of the Democratic Party itself apologizing.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 9:59:45 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#259040: Oct 27th 2018 at 7:01:46 AM

I think we're kind of missing the forest for the trees here.

Typically, the point of an apology is to make the victim of whatever's being apologized for feel better, and as a means for the transgressor to start behaving in a different manner.

The Democrats, by and large, have already fulfilled the latter part of it - so I could see apologizing for Jackson and his bullshit when addressing Native American groups, but outside of that context? See Raineh's statement regarding "good faith" and politics.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259041: Oct 27th 2018 at 7:16:45 AM

I’m just gonna point out that for DECADES democrats have held “Jefferson-Jackson” fundraising dinners. Now, a lot of local parties have started to rename those dinners in the last couple of years, but you can’t say that they had completely distanced themselves from that legacy. It costs nothing to apologize for uplifting ancestral monsters as a point of pride.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259042: Oct 27th 2018 at 7:28:56 AM

I’m just gonna point out that for DECADES democrats have held “Jefferson-Jackson” fundraising dinners. Now, a lot of local parties have started to rename those dinners in the last couple of years, but you can’t say that they had completely distanced themselves from that legacy. It costs nothing to apologize for uplifting ancestral monsters as a point of pride.

I didn't know about that, in that case, I agree that they should apologize for holding those dinners.

That's just grotesque.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#259043: Oct 27th 2018 at 7:35:45 AM

Ponit here is....why is just only the dems need to apologies?

I mean, it wasnt a rouge organization, some lone wolf or whatever who did the trail of tears in general, what happen is a issue that all american did against natives, to said otherwise is like saying germany wasnt at fault but nazis did, is a pointless diferent in the grand scale of things.

Dems should repudiate jackson? yeah but as general priciple, not because they need to clean bad blood.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#259044: Oct 27th 2018 at 7:41:29 AM

To really set things right, a few things need to be done:

1) Those damn dinners need to end or be renamed.

2) A Democratic candidate has to become President to make the rest of the list meaningful or even possible.

3) Jackson needs to be removed from the Twenty.

4) The President then needs to make a formal acknowledgement of genocide and apology.

Edited by M84 on Oct 27th 2018 at 10:47:47 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#259045: Oct 27th 2018 at 7:41:43 AM

I mean, an apology without serious efforts to help improve the current state of First Nations people in the US would be a shallow, empty gesture, and would rightfully be seen as self-serving.

It's been fun.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#259046: Oct 27th 2018 at 7:52:21 AM

Unknowing has a point on that one. I recall reading that part of the problem was that, despite the US Government telling people not to settle in certain areas, they continued to do so. When the Native Americans attacked in reprisal, the settlers complained to the government, then groused about how the government wasn't protecting them properly, thus spurring the government into action because of the idiot settlers.

That's by no means the whole story, but it was definitely a contributing factor.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#259047: Oct 27th 2018 at 7:58:22 AM

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 11:00:22 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#259048: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:07:38 AM

Well, I have no problem whatsoever to apologize in the name of my country for what it did in the past. That doesn't mean that I feel personally responsible for it, but my ancestors were, and I think one has to acknowledge it in order to change things.

Hell, I am not even American, and I feel kind of responsible in a broader sense for what happened to the native Americans because a lot of the settlers were Germans. It was simply not right what happened back then. And acknowledging this is the first step of truly making amends. Starting by asking what kind of amends would be welcome, but you know, NOT acting as if General Custer is a tragical fallen hero might be a good start. Asking the Lakota how they would like to frame the battle of little big horn might be a good second step. The Native Americans have a story to tell, but to this day it is mostly told by white people for white people.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#259049: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:17:45 AM

9 House races have shifted towards the Democrats, two towards the Republicans.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/10/27/politics/cnn-house-key-races-late-october-update/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#259050: Oct 27th 2018 at 8:24:50 AM

[up][up]Not to mention that Native Americans are still essentially second class citizens, with horrific poverty rates, dilapidated schools, terrible access to health care, suppression of their voting rights, violation of their sacred lands (Standing Rock and more)...

And while democrats are less ACTIVELY harmful than the republicans, the democrats have not done nearly enough to support, let alone expand, the rights of Native Americans to be first class citizens.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 27th 2018 at 11:25:18 AM


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