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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
There's no benefit to apologizing and I frankly question whether it's even the right thing to do, the parties are not coherent organizations with continuous legacies and thus it makes little sense for the Democrats to apologize for the actions of a tangibly connected organization which only existed in the distant past.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 8:47:43 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangI'd argue that the people it happened to don't need the reminder. So the 'bringing old things up' argument mainly serves to avoid the issue for descendants of the perpetrators.
I mean, honestly, you think African-Americans need a reminder that Slavery was a thing? or Japanese-Americans about Internment during WW 2? Or Native Americans about how a bunch of pasty Englishmen came to their continent and decided 'Mine!'.
To answer Beary, this doesn't mean there is no way there can never be anything positive. You can't blot out the bad, and the only way to make up for it is to be better tomorrow. But for that to happen you need to acknowledge it first.
"You can reply to this Message!"Why?
The modern Democratic Party has no special connection to the old Democratic Party, there is no reason to apologize for that beyond desiring to pointlessly harm our position and thus the good we can do. We do not at all need to apologize for it, the Democratic Party has done good and there's nothing stopping us from continuing to do good without pointlessly sabotaging ourselves.
If Cherokee people cannot understand that the modern Democratic Party has no practical connection to Jackson then that sounds like a them problem, we can win elections without the Party pointlessly pandering to them. Let the local candidate do it if it's necessary.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThere is a LOT of benefit to apologizing. It just depends on the context.
A VERY famous example of an apology is this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kniefall_von_Warschau
In fact, the whole relationship between Germany and Poland is today built on apologies. In both directions.
If you never apologize, you will also never do any effort to correct the wrongdoing of the past or the ones of the present. Slavery for example still resonates through US society to this day.
Edited by Swanpride on Oct 27th 2018 at 6:00:16 AM
Apologizing is admitting responsibility, the modern Democratic Party is not responsible.
That would be like Germany apologizing for the actions of the Holy Roman Empire, it's stupid and doesn't make sense.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 8:59:17 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang![]()
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I was speaking to Beary more in terms of Country then Party, but the fact that the modern Dems have no content overlap with the Dems of Jackson does not mean they are not the descendants of them and profited off the abuse and murder of Cherokee to get where they are today.
I'm German but a few Generations removed from the 1940s. Does that mean I can tell the descendant of a Auschwitz survivor it's a 'Them' problem if they have issues with me vocally criticizing Israel too?
Edited by 3of4 on Oct 27th 2018 at 3:03:01 PM
"You can reply to this Message!"![]()
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The current German political parties are also not the same which were in power during WWII and WWI. Doesn't mean that apologizing for the wrongdoings of Germany is not part of the job description. Unless you are part of the Af D, naturally.
Edited by Swanpride on Oct 27th 2018 at 6:01:52 AM
Jackson did not engage in ethnic cleansing in 1940 so this is a false comparison, he was elected in 1824 by a completely different party which just happened to share the same name.
To act as if the Democratic Party not apologizing about that is equivalent ot Germans not acknowledging Nazism is completely ridiculous, not to mention that if in 200 years Germany doesn't feel like apologizing or focusing on Nazis then I don't really care. Guilt is not an eternal thing and past a century focusing on it is just a waste of time.
I refuse to feel guilty or have my party have an ounce of responsibility for something that happened in the distant past.
The real solution is finding a way to get them on their side without issuing a pointless apology
Exactly this.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 9:08:33 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang![]()
You do remember that there was no 'Parties in Power' during WW One :P? We were a Monarchy back then.
That is a very privileged position to have. Because even now the descendants upon which those crimes where perpetrated are living with the consequences of it.
And I note, not all of the examples I gave were in the 1800s. Japanese Internment was also in the 1940s and FDR was a Dem. Would a Apology there be different?
Edited by 3of4 on Oct 27th 2018 at 3:11:21 PM
"You can reply to this Message!"I don't especially care if you think that, we're the ones who want to help them and falsely admitting responsibility would not change that or help them.
It's ridiculous to blame the Democratic party for actions that happened 192 years ago.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThing was there ever a formal apology for what Jackson did? The UK only recently apologised for slavery, the idea that the US government should apologise for Jackson isn’t an absurd idea.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranAnd, yet... you guys hate on George III every year around June and July for no good reason.
Heck, we Brits still trot out Bonfire Night because Guy Fawkes and company couldn't conspire properly back in 1605.
Take it from me: it's never too late to say sorry. And, sitting on your bombings of Dresdons for as long as possible denying that it matters doesn't make the pain any less for the Dresdons.
Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 27th 2018 at 2:13:58 PM
Claiming that the modern Democrats should apologise for Jackson because he was a Democrat when their voter bases are almost entirely non-overlapping is burdening the wrong party with guilt. For instance, a lot of Jackson's support is from Southern states, which would mean that if you want to blame someone it would be the modern Republican voter base.
When was the last time anyone took that seriously and not as an excuse to set things on fire and cause explosions?
Edited by RainehDaze on Oct 27th 2018 at 2:14:43 PM
To act as if the Democratic Party not apologizing about that is equivalent ot Germans not acknowledging Nazism is completely ridiculous, not to mention that if in 200 years Germany doesn't feel like apologizing or focusing on Nazis then I don't really care. Guilt is not a generational thing and past a century focusing on it is just a waste of time.
I refuse to feel guilty or have my party have an ounce of responsibility for something that happened in the distant past.
No, he committed genocide (let's use the correct terminology here) in 1824, under the auspices of a party which, to this day, continues to use the name 'The Democratic Party,' and which even before the advent of the Southern Strategy and the flip to being the party of civil rights, continues to acknowledge Presidents who served in office as registered Democrats before becoming the party of civil rights. FDR, Woodrow Wilson, Harry S. Truman...when Obama was sworn in, he was considered in the same presidential line that included Jackson.
So the Democratic Party in praxis may be very different from the Democratic Party of 1824, but the Democratic Party of 2018 still draws on the legacy of men like Jackson, Polk and Buchanan. They're still part of the presidential 'canon.' The party uses the same name as a previously established political entity that oversaw a large-scale genocide of the indigenous tribes in the region. They have benefited from the prestige and the political clout that these people built, just as the Republicans continue to parasite off the image of Abe Lincoln. The Democrats of today have made a conscious effort to call upon the political history and spirit of this past generation of Democrats who, by all accounts, committed some truly reprehensible acts.
It's not surprising that they do it, of course. It's good political clout, and the overwhelming majority of Americans share your sentiments that colonialist violence and ethnic cleansing aren't blood on subsequent generations' hands. You are, of course, entitled to have this wrong opinion, but that doesn't make it correct, and it doesn't make the stance the Cherokee are taking here necessarily wrong.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.![]()
Inherit the name, inherit the problems.
There's a reason why Wilkinson Sword rebranded from The Hollow Sword Blade Company to put as much distance between it and the South Sea Company as corporately possible.
I suspect Northern Ireland would like to explain how Bonfire Night can mean "bombing". And, given Brexit... expect the explicit anti-Catholic sentiment of the "holiday" to come back. But, it's great you forgot the 30s-90s.
Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 27th 2018 at 2:21:33 PM
Heck, we Brits still trot out Bonfire Night because Guy Fawkes and company couldn't conspire properly back in 1605.
Take it from me: it's never too late to say sorry. And, sitting on your bombings of Dresdons for as long as possible denying that it matters doesn't make the pain any less for the Dresdons.
Firstly even if this was generally true it would not apply to me, furthermore as someone who has actually engaged in 4th of July celebrations I can assure you that this isn't really true.
It's more about "yay independence" then "fuck George III".
Furthermore just because we celebrate national important dates does not mean that it's right or useful to flagellate ourselves over something horrible that happened more then a century ago, if we start that then we'll literally never stop.
Exactly this, the Democratic Party are the people who actually want to make the lives of the Cherokee people and everyone else better.
It's grotesque to claim that they have any responsibility for the actions of an ideologically and structurally alien party.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2018 at 9:19:41 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangI wouldn't say it's a wrong opinion, nor is the idea that sharing the same name automatically means you should be burdened with some guilt or responsibility for things committed centuries ago by an entirely different group of people. Whether this is parties or nationalities.
It's a stupid concept in general to keep trying to assign blame for the past on modern people, but it keeps happening, and god does it cause problems.
Edited by RainehDaze on Oct 27th 2018 at 2:22:03 PM
Speaking of the Cherokee, it isn't just bad blood left from the genocide, it's also that disease of "Southern Pride" saturating that particular culture. Their governing body supported the south during the civil war, and during the years leading to the civil rights movement, the common line was something along the lines of "we're not white but we're a race above black."
It came to a head a few years ago when the tribal government attempted to expell those with Africn ancestry from their rolls (a PR disaster that thankfully failed) and with Trump's election some of the tribal government even offered to surrender their sovereignty as a token of fealty.
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The opinion that two centuries of colonial exploitation have no bearing on the dynamics of present-day America and Europe is entirely inconsistent with just about any scholarship on the matter. It is, for as close as you can get to absolute truth in the inherently fluid science of human endeavor, wrong.
Edited by math792d on Oct 27th 2018 at 3:23:05 PM
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.That's different than the opinion being held. Nobody's saying "it doesn't have any bearing on the present day", rather "related groups with centuries between them shouldn't be expected to bear responsibility for the actions taken by said prior group". Anyone involved in it is centuries dead and anyone involved in the group nowadays only bears the vaguest relation.

You might also note it's strange parties sometimes never bother to confront their past directly like issuing formal apologies or renaming.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.