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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257876: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:56:58 PM

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/new-york-retail-vacancy/572911/

Manhattan is becoming a ghost town due to no one being able to afford Trump and Giulliani's super-gentrified New York anymore.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#257877: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:07:58 PM

Eh, the alternative isn't so great.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#257878: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:14:23 PM

Nostalgia about the past can lead to weird places. There are actually people who are nostalgic about being mugged, of all things.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257879: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:14:28 PM

[up][up] I don't think getting rid of crime by kicking out everyone not exorbitantly rich is a good solution, though...like, you want to tackle crime, boost social spending and services, don't just kick out everyone who doesn't clear a "be this rich to pass" bar.

[down] *Insert Blade Runner reference here*

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:21:15 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#257880: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:20:46 PM

[up][up][up][up] So Los Angeles will probably be the US's largest city in the future?

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#257881: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:22:21 PM

Boost social services and spending from what miraculously untouched pot of money? To invest, you first need to tax, and no one's willing to pay up. Until then, gentrification is here to stay because no one wants New York — or really any city — to look like a scene out of Taxi Driver.

[up]Nowhere close. Both NYC and LA have grown an estimated 5.5% since 2017, but NYC is like 8.8 million people, while LA is 3.9 million.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:28:00 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257882: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:27:44 PM

[up] ...In America's financial capital, you can't find any money to tax?

And I'm curious. Where, exactly, do you expect all the people too poor to stay to go? Do you expect they'll be better off the minute they move elsewhere?

[down]I expect someone who pushes down rent might be a bit popular, yes.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:30:09 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#257883: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:28:44 PM

Name a politician who could do it and remain in office.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#257884: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:28:56 PM

You'd think a place with more wealth would have more crime, not less.

F*ck, my family and I could probably be set for life just from pawning ten square feet of Trump's foyer.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#257885: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:30:14 PM

"The state's more conservative voters are almost certainly not going to vote for him."

Honestly, I think a good chunk of them would. Not because they like him, but Feinstein is so thoroughly demonized by Republicans that they would indeed vote for someone more liberal just to spite her.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#257886: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:31:48 PM

Having more wealthy residents means more funding for the district, so it really isn't surprising that gentrification is an attractive proposition, since it raises the tax revenue without having to legislate. More tax revenue means — theoretically — better schools.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:35:03 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257887: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:34:31 PM

[up] That revenue can then be spent bettering the lives of all those people! That...aren't there anymore...because of the gentrification.

I'm aware it is an attractive proposition - for those rich enough to dodge the drawbacks. However, it can't really be considered a benefit for the city if it doesn't benefit most of its inhabitants, right?

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#257888: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:37:30 PM

New York is still an absolutely gigantic metropolis and any attempt to characterize it as a "ghost town" is false. Manhattan has grown at a rate of 3% to 5% each decade since 1990, matching New York's overall rate. The people are still there, but evidently the wrong kind of people for the narrative.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:38:54 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257889: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:40:36 PM

[up] I'm aware New York isn't empty, thank you very much. I'm pointing out that gentrification does not actually benefit everyone, and serves more as a "kick the problems somewhere else" solution as opposed to "dealing with the problems" solution. I'm saying that, in such a sprawling metropolis with clearly a significant chunk of cash, there has to be a better solution than gentrification.

[down]Pretty much that. Again, a compelling reason to why gentrification is better than just taxing the rich people more has not been given.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:47:52 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257890: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:43:04 PM

There's a lot of simplification going on in this narrative. The Inner Cities being used as a dumping ground for America's minorities in appalling conditions was accompanied by a large amount of American propaganda designed to treat them as a Wretched Hive.

Because there was implicit racism in their treatment and a desire to frame them as dangerous and threatening to white America (see "Show Me a Hero" by HBO for a way the racism of America's public housing was handled).

Then DONALD TRUMP had the great idea of forcing people out of their homes, tearing them down, and building homes for the super-rich. Yes, the same plan as the Kingpin in Daredevil was originated by our President and copied virtually everywhere else. That the inner cities were gradually cleaned out of the poor and sent...."Elsewhere"

The thing being now that this real estate hiking is once more leading to a real estate collapse (remember those) where the prices continually hike until the bottom drops out.

And we learned nothing from 2008....because why would we?

I'm aware New York isn't empty, thank you very much. I'm pointing out that gentrification does not actually benefit everyone, and serves more as a "kick the problems somewhere else" solution as opposed to "dealing with the problems" solution. I'm saying that, in such a sprawling metropolis with clearly a significant chunk of cash, there has to be a better solution than gentrification.

There's a bigger problem here at work as well. The issue is that gentrification of New York is a failure of a plan because it was designed to create an environment for the super rich, ala Dubai (albeit less extreme). The problem is the same one as Dubai that concentrating wealth there does not work for a functioning society. You need people who are not super-wealthy to have it function and the continual price driving has started to collapse both cities.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 16th 2018 at 9:47:04 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#257891: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:53:31 PM

"Pretty much that. Again, a compelling reason to why gentrification is better than just taxing the rich people more has not been given."

Because you can extract tax money without actually instituting a tax and putting Democratic seats at risk of a Republican takeover. Even the proletarii you're hoping to help would bring the GOP in if there were even a hint of propaganda that a tax hike would affect them.

Gentrification also encourages students to move permanently into a community, and brings in intellectuals and the educated. It's an engine of liberalization by blueing Red territory, raising prices to drive out the locals and transplant a local, progressive voting base.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:56:34 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257892: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:56:35 PM

[up] And where do the people go if they cannot pay, Zephyr? What happens to them in this solution? And is putting a couple of seats in "danger" (in the middle of one of the bluest areas in the country? Ocasio-Cortez is from this area) worth that?

Also, how the hell is "driving out the locals" a POSITIVE? Like...what!?

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 16th 2018 at 1:01:10 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#257893: Oct 16th 2018 at 9:58:56 PM

I agree that Crimson Zephyr is making this into a strange false dichotomy, and I'd add that the phrasing and tone comes off as fairly snobbish.

Which is a vibe I've gotten before, actually, but never thought was on-topic to mention until now.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:00:57 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257894: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:03:34 PM

Given the 2008 financial crisis was caused by selling real estate at inflated prices to encourage people to live beyond their means and drive out the poor...no, that's not how it works at all.

And the idea of "Blueing" Red States by colonialization is....wow.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#257895: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:06:38 PM

And in this context the "blueing red via colonization" doesn't even make sense, because there are only a few areas of New York that are even competitive, let alone Republican-friendly, and those aren't the ones the gentry are actually interested in. Not as far as I'm aware, anyway.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:06:53 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257896: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:14:13 PM

Also, gentrification is traditionally poor minorities kicked out for white folk.

It doesn't happen much in Red States.

Which educated people generally move FROM.

Of my high school class, the overachievers moved to Chicago and New Orleans.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 16th 2018 at 10:15:07 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#257897: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:14:56 PM

That Giuliani and Bloomberg won elections in "untouchable Blue" NYC for the better part of twenty years ought to dispel the notion that a Republican ascendancy is unthinkable, or that anyone wants to go back to the Big Rotten Apple. It'll happen if pre-1993 becomes the model, or if taxes are raised. My preference would be to tax the shit out of the rich and establish a more robust social safety net, but any time that's suggested, the GOP wins elections, so...

[up]That's true, but there are examples where poor whites are driven out as well. Southie is getting more diverse specifically because of gentrification.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 16th 2018 at 1:19:23 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#257898: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:19:51 PM

And what, you think gentrification will solve this? The people who gentrification prices out are not, generally speaking, the GOP’s base. We’re talking working class people of color, are we not?

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Oct 16th 2018 at 1:20:48 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257899: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:20:21 PM

[up][up]So cave? Stop trying to do the right thing, stop trying to help people, just kick out the poorest so more rich people can feel better about themselves? I think that's a pretty bad line of thinking. "These people may be able to do a bad thing, so we should preempt that and do it first."

[up],[down] [awesome][awesome][awesome]

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 16th 2018 at 1:23:42 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#257900: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:22:14 PM

That's true, but there are examples where poor whites are driven out as well. Southie is getting more diverse specifically because of gentrification.

I mean, is that better? It really seems like the focus there is poor people being driven out. Or it should be, anyway.

It's not like that actual solves problems sense those people have to go some where.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 16th 2018 at 12:23:11 PM


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