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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257601: Oct 13th 2018 at 7:16:38 AM

I am deeply depresed that "we can't do anything about voter suppression unless we win by a landslide."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#257602: Oct 13th 2018 at 7:21:19 AM

I am deeply depresed that "we can't do anything about voter suppression unless we win by a landslide."

It is what is.

Sure we need higher turnout then what's fair to win, but we have high base enthusiasm and women (a critical demographic) seem to strongly support the Democratic Party. If we do well then Democrats will control the positions responsible to redistrict the maps, and that'll make things fairer.

So I get why you'd be unhappy about it (I'm certainly angry about such obstacles) but there's very real possibility for things to get better and that is good.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Friendperson Since: May, 2018
#257603: Oct 13th 2018 at 8:00:05 AM

When voter turnout is higher, Democrats tend to win.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#257604: Oct 13th 2018 at 8:01:32 AM

Got a chuckle out of this one. Governor of Kentucky is all pissed off that Ottawa singled out his state for (counter-)tariffs, and called them a cash grab.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kentucky-tariffs-canada-trump-usmca-1.4861554

Actually, they are designed to put the squeeze on Red States, feel better pal? And I'm pretty sure there's available substitutes to Kentucky bourbon, like mouthwash.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Oct 13th 2018 at 12:03:42 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#257605: Oct 13th 2018 at 8:15:35 AM

Got a chuckle out of this one. Governor of Kentucky is all pissed off that Ottawa singled out his state for (counter-)tariffs, and called them a cash grab.

He should have some personal responsibility and pull up his bootstraps, after all this is only happening because of the President whom his state helped elect.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#257606: Oct 13th 2018 at 8:23:26 AM

Nothing brings a smile to my face like seeing Trump supporters feel the consequences of their vote.

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
Ludlow Since: Apr, 2013
#257608: Oct 13th 2018 at 8:42:42 AM

@Rational Insanity Alright, say what you want about Kentucky, but don't you dare besmirch the name of bourbon! tongue

[up] The cult of Lee is strong among even the most truly moderate Republicans. Hell, there are a few Democrats who speak well of him, such is the success of his cult. My Republican dad actually gave my little brother the middle name Lee in his honor.

[down] Oh no, he was just a principled man who refused to fight against his own state /s

Edited by Ludlow on Oct 13th 2018 at 8:47:52 AM

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#257609: Oct 13th 2018 at 8:44:15 AM

So great he signed up to fight a war he couldn't win for the right to own humans as property.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#257610: Oct 13th 2018 at 8:54:40 AM

[up][up]

I think a big part of that is that even those in the North at the time considered him a Worthy Opponent. Given the circumstances, that alone would go a long way towards a Historical Hero Upgrade - for a given value of "Hero", of course. The same goes for Erwin Rommel, as Allied commanders weren't exactly shy about their admiration for his combat tactics.

[down]

I think that's another factor that yields Lee such respect - his overt statements epitomized My Country, Right or Wrong. Granted, "Country" in this instance meant State, which has led to the abysmal "War Between the States" revisionism, but still.

Edited by ironballs16 on Oct 13th 2018 at 1:02:14 PM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#257611: Oct 13th 2018 at 9:42:09 AM

[up] Well, Abraham Lincon did ask him to lead the Union Army, so there’s that. (He refused)

I Think there’s also an element of Time Marches On and Values Dissonance, as well. From The Other Wiki [1]:

Despite opposing secession, Lee said in January that "we can with a clear conscience separate" if all peaceful means failed. He agreed with secessionists in most areas, such as dislike of Northern anti-slavery criticisms and prevention of expanding slavery to new territories, and fear of its larger population. Lee supported the Crittenden Compromise, which would have constitutionally protected slavery.[1]

Lee's objection to secession was ultimately outweighed by a sense of personal honor, reservations about the legitimacy of a strife-ridden "Union that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets", and duty to defend his native Virginia if attacked.[108] He was asked while leaving Texas by a lieutenant if he intended to fight for the Confederacy or the Union, to which Lee replied, "I shall never bear arms against the Union, but it may be necessary for me to carry a musket in the defense of my native state, Virginia, in which case I shall not prove recreant to my duty

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 13th 2018 at 12:55:11 PM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#257612: Oct 13th 2018 at 10:29:39 AM

Ad hoc West Virginia Supreme Court blocks impeachment of West Virginia chief justice. Note: The "ad hoc" part is because the Supreme Court is entirely composed of acting justices due to the impeachment move.

The Senate intends to convene an impeachment trial anyway while they wait for their appeal. I wonder if they can be arrested for contempt of court for doing that? (Yes, yes, that would be a constitutional crisis, but that ship sailed a while back.)

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#257613: Oct 13th 2018 at 10:35:32 AM

I Think there’s also an element of Time Marches On and Values Dissonance, as well. From The Other Wiki [1]:

Uh no, let's not whitewash him. Values dissonance does not apply when many people of your time view what you're doing as wrong, especially when his logic of 'defending his state' is such obvious bullshit in that many of his fellow members of his state did not agree. Not to mention that the myth is entirely fabricated and hides a man who was viciously racist and cruel to the point where he was arguably worse than the normal racists of his time.

So there were no such elements, he was just a bad person.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 13th 2018 at 1:38:33 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#257614: Oct 13th 2018 at 10:36:20 AM

Lee's spiel about fighting to defend Virginia rings hollow when one considers the fact that Virginia rebelled after the Confederacy attacked Fort Sumter, starting the war. He was deserting the United States, which had never done him nor his state any wrong, to side with the aggressors.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#257615: Oct 13th 2018 at 10:50:24 AM

Also Virginia was split between Unionist Virginia (which became West Virginia) and Confederate Virginia. He made war on half of Virginia for it choosing to not support slavery.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#257616: Oct 13th 2018 at 10:52:01 AM

And about 40% of his fellow Virginian officers (as well as hundreds of thousands of his fellow Southerners in general) took another option. He made a choice and should be condemned for it.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257617: Oct 13th 2018 at 10:58:07 AM

Two points.

1. Fuck the Governor of my state. The Republican cartel which controls Kentucky has been causing immense suffering for the poor, the disadvantaged, and (bizarrely) the religious for a long time.

2. Robert E. Lee is the beneficiary of a massive propaganda campaign which has largely been performed posthumously. The Republicans of the time (i.e. the good guys) did NOT view him as a Worthy Opponent and engaged in quite a bit of petty revenge against him because they viewed him as a Karma Houdini.

Arlington National Cemetery is literally an enormous fuck you to him as both:

A. A way to deprive him of his home.

B. A reminder of just how many US soldiers died because of his actions.

Actually, I take it back, that is NOT petty revenge but extremely awesome metaphorical.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 13th 2018 at 10:58:43 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#257618: Oct 13th 2018 at 11:11:10 AM

The Republicans of the time (i.e. the good guys) did NOT view him as a Worthy Opponent and engaged in quite a bit of petty revenge against him because they viewed him as a Karma Houdini.

No, but after the Radical Republicans settled down, the decision was made to bring the country back together and make white Southerners Americans again. Part of that included rehabilitating Lee's image.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257619: Oct 13th 2018 at 11:13:16 AM

That decision was made in large part by the opposition who were part of the process and Lincoln's asshole of a VP.

And we've been suffering for it ever since.

Kind of crazy that trying to hold a fig leaf for peace has resulted in a century more of horrible oppression and racism.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 13th 2018 at 11:14:24 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#257620: Oct 13th 2018 at 11:34:20 AM

The Democrat/moderate alliance succeeded in large part because the North wanted to get back to doing business with the South. A secondary reason is that the Grant Administration and enough of the carpetbaggers were crooked enough to hide behind a spiral staircase, including many of the most fervent supporters of black rights. (No, this isn't revisionism. Whether it was "just a few bad apples" or a lot of them is almost beside the point - there was enough corruption that the scalawags rejoined the Democrats.)

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#257621: Oct 13th 2018 at 12:12:45 PM

The Democrat/moderate alliance succeeded in large part because the North wanted to get back to doing business with the South

Yes and that business in their view was worth the lives of black people and white Republicans.

Don't whitewash the shameful cowardice of the North in allowing traitors and terrorists to get away with their crimes with impunity and win the peace.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#257622: Oct 13th 2018 at 12:28:55 PM

Here’s the Crash Course episodes on the Civil War and Reconstruction, for the sake of context: (I just like to put some quick resources when we get into American history, just in case anyone needs a refresher.)

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 13th 2018 at 3:40:22 PM

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#257623: Oct 13th 2018 at 1:37:54 PM

Trump is probably the president hardest to take seriously in American history. Yes, more so than Buchanan because at least he didn't make an ass out of himself during the election. Buchanan's still the worst president unless Trump starts another Civil War/World War III though

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257624: Oct 13th 2018 at 1:41:01 PM

I hate Trump but people vastly overestimate how much of a problem he is.

Well...no, he's a monster and a racist and scum.

However, we have Presidents guilty of genocide.

Trump is responsible for the deaths in Puerto Rico but people keep pretending like Dubya didn't destabilize the entirety of the world, legalize torture, steal his own election, and cause millions of deaths.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#257625: Oct 13th 2018 at 1:46:57 PM

I hate Trump but people vastly overestimate how much of a problem he is.

Well...no, he's a monster and a racist and scum.

However, we have Presidents guilty of genocide.

Trump is responsible for the deaths in Puerto Rico but people keep pretending like Dubya didn't destabilize the entirety of the world, legalize torture, steal his own election, and cause millions of deaths.

Those Presidents had the opportunity to do that, Trump due to his incompetence and the current resilience of our system has not had the same opportunity and thus any comparison is going to be intrinsically flawed. Suffice to say Trump is causing very real damage to our world standing and democracy, whether he's the worst or not doesn't really matter and doesn't mean that people are overestimating his awfulness vastly or otherwise.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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